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From Rob Weir <>
Subject Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
Date Thu, 01 Sep 2011 22:33:08 GMT
You two are some of the smartest admins I know, and I've known a few.
With mastery obviously comes strong opinions and equally strong
working habits.  This is probably the largest migration effort Apache
has ever done.  It is certainly a huge effort from OOo's perspective,
since it is a technical, procedural and social change.  We obviously
really need both of your help in the coming days and weeks.   Can we
find a way to cool off rather than escalate?  Tomorrow is another day.



On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Gavin McDonald <> wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Terry Ellison []
>> Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 8:02 AM
>> To:
>> Cc:
>> Subject: Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
>> Dennis,
>> The short answer is IMHO: that's correct -- No.  As to the long one: ...
>> Oracle stopped its major funding of OOo as a mainstream product for sound
>> commercial reasons -- though this has resulted in personal consequences for
>> a lot of people who worked on OOo and who no longer have a job.  Now
>> we've now got some services running unmanned, because the people have
>> gone.
>> We were lucky as far as the OOo wiki was concerned in that I was already
>> providing expert support to the Oracle guy who ran the system, and I was
>> able to step in with his active cooperation before he "left the building".
>> I believe that Oracle that wants to ensure a "bumpless" transfer to the
>> Apache project wherever possible, and it will find the necessary mechanisms
>> to grant project members who have the right technical skills and track record
>> to take over these systems.  Our main problem is that this list currently
>> seems to contains one name -- mine, though there are others who could
>> potentially step into this gap: for example Raphael, Kay and Drew.  However
>> we are all already working to our limits.  Maybe we just need a cloning
>> machine :(
> Once we have documentation in place, any infra person can jump in and help
> should the need arise.
>> Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I feel that
>> I am caught between a rock and a hard place.  My work is time consuming
>> and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo developer,
>> but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin.  In some ways you need to be
>> an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate this expertise.  I
>> am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about
>> hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine.  Again this only my
>> personal experience, but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers
>> and this seems to be an endemic culture, albeit strongly advocated by a few
>> individuals.  It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to domains of
>> expertise outside its comfort area -- even though these may be more
>> relevant to the work and Apache's wider mission.  In short I am being asked
>> to work long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional
>> environment.
> Nobody is asking you to so anything, you are a volunteer, you can do zero hours
> if it pleases you, Your hours are governed by what you want to put in, not what
> anybody tells you to do.
> Please explain what you mean by dysfunctional?
> FWIW I've been bending over backwards trying to help you with infra stuff, but you
> are a stubborn old git who will not listen to how we do things around here. We have
> accommodated just about every need, every weird way you do things, now it is time
> for you to listen to us and fit in with us. I've been prepared to help you do this but
> then you just go and piss me off with outlandish emails like this one.
>  > If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I would be
>> seriously thinking about changing jobs -- and this is from a guy who spent 32
>> years working with the same company working to get to its top technical tier
>> -- and also one who is now doing this work pro-bono.
> This is a volunteer organisation, guess what, you are not the only person here doing
> work for nothing. Please do not yet again spout off your credentials or your countless
> millions of hours spent on this, we KNOW, we are very grateful but I am getting tired
> of you always shoving it in our face as an excuse for us to have to bow down and do
> it the Terry way. We are not stupid, do not treat us as stupid. You are not stupid, we
> that. We are not here to piss you off, but you seem to trying very hard to do that to
> at least. Now, quit the jibes and learn to do things in a way that will please us all.
> Gav...
>> So we do have the means in terms of Oracle enabling, but we, the project,
>> don't have the resources / expertise to step up to this. If I am still here in 3
>> months and this is still an outstanding issue, then I'll try to sort it out.
>> Regards Terry
>> On 01/09/11 20:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>> > Um, so your answer is no?
>> >
>> > You do not have any means to deal with that mailing list issue on the live
>> site?
>> >
>> > Any suggestions?
>> >
>> >   - Dennis
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Terry Ellison []
>> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:04
>> >
>> > Subject: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
>> >
>> > Dennis,
>> >
>> > As we've discussed previously there is almost a "religious" split
>> > between those that work on forums and those that work on MLs and DLs.
>> > Very few of those involved in the governance of the forums would have
>> > anything to do with DLs/MLs and v.v.
>> >
>> > However, what you are really talking about is a configuration issue of
>> > the mail forwarder.  It's more an application issue if we get control
>> > of the application support.  I have exactly the same issues with my
>> > mail responder that is built into the forums.
>> >
>> >> Terry, do you know if those administrative controls extend to the
>> >> management of the mailing lists, such as the ones for
>> >>  (apparently at
>> >> <>).
>> >>
>> >> Do you have any information on how we can empower someone to block
>> a
>> >> bad echo?
>> >>
>> >> Every post to the more-heavily-populated lists there generates three
>> >> notices Then we need to find the
>> >> subscribers whose e-mail addresses are landing at the responding site
>> >> and disable those.
>> >>
>> >> I also fear that there is nothing in our planned work to preserve
>> >> these portions of the domain.
>> >>
>> >> - Dennis
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Terry Ellison []
>> >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 09:47
>> >>
>> >> Subject: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
>> >>
>> >> Anyone is able to join the OOo Community forums, but we also have a
>> >> number of closed forums use for internal management of the site. If
>> >> any committers would like to have access to these, then just make
>> >> sure that they've got an active account on the current production
>> >> service (not
>> >> and email me me from it requesting access. I
>> >> will then raise you to "volunteer" so that you can see the main
>> >> closed forums.
>> >>
>> >> Please note: the forum rules apply to all and all volunteers are
>> >> expected to follow them -- including me or any other committer.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >> Terr

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