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From Kay Schenk <kay.sch...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Concerns about all PDL website material
Date Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:34:50 GMT
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:

>
> On Sep 10, 2011, at 9:05 AM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Dennis,
> >>
> >> I am under impression that the license for everything on OOo is PDL, yet
> >> almost nothing fulfills the terms.
> >>
> >> Copyrights are with the Initial Writer. If I can find an Initial Writer
> I
> >> will mark it - pretty much only in <META> tags although that is whose
> OOo
> >> back in 2000/2002 created or changed the page or some lists in some
> places.
> >>
> >> As far as copyright where there is no identified Initial Writer should
> we:
> >>
> >> (1) Have no copyright.
> >> (2) Put the ASF copyright in place.
> >> (3) Put an Oracle copyright on it.
> >> (4) Put an OpenOffice.org copyright on it.
> >>
> >> We can't do (3) we're not Oracle. We should stop doing (2).
> >>
> >> Unless there is an argument in one direction or another I'll do (1) by
> Lazy
> >> Consensus.
> >>
> >> I recommend that as we replace pages with AOOo policies that we create
> >> mdtext replacements as fresh files.
> >>
> >> On Sep 7, 2011, at 4:11 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dave,
> >>>
> >>> It would seem that these (few, I believe we're told) can be handled the
> >> same as unclear provenance anywhere in the code base and its
> dependencies.
> >>>
> >>> The ideal time to clean these up would be when the site is under the
> >> OpenOffice.org domain name but actually hosted on Apache infrastructure.
> >> That gives complete ability to make all of the adjustments that are
> needed,
> >> including the numerous minor ones to connect to the Bugzilla, etc.
> >>>
> >>> I'm not clear how migration of the wiki is impacted, unless you mean
> the
> >> proposed movement of material now on static web pages into the wiki?
> >>
> >> That is my concern. Kay will need to assure that we know which wiki
> pages
> >> came in as "PDL" as I think they'll need to stay that way.
> >>
> >
> > uh...well I am not sure AT ALL how to determine this esp the pages that
> are
> > not English. Oh joy -- I'm not a good legal eagle. :(
>
> I think we will need to count on NL teams to do IP clearance in their own
> language and either update, delete or move to the wiki. At least the DE site
> is behind in several areas - especially licensing.
>

Well this would be easiest. I suppose it would be easy enough for the NL
project leads to just do an svn (they don't need committer access for anon),
and then move to the wiki -- assuming they've got access there.

I could certainly do some of this soonish -- next week or so. I'll jsut
assume existing structure as we have for "de".


> >
> > Somehow I have a feeling that when OpenOffice.org spec'd the PDL, we/they
> > were just trying to use something convenient that was available in the
> > public domain.
>
> I now believe that most of the site is licensed via OCA and/or Terms of
> Use. We'll need to point to sign contributors and mention a some parts are
> copyright .... Oracle and a long list of people. We can then get
> legal-discuss@a.o to review.
>
> >
> > Anyway, I'll take a look at the NL sites in the next day or so and see
> what
> > I can determine.
>
> Sure, I think that we should proceed with converting everything we can from
> the OOo website to our incubator site. Whatever you move to the wiki can be
> removed or left as a simple stump that might be able to provide some way to
> preserve links into the project.
>

Well for now, I won't move ANYTHING to wiki, because we have NO actual new
OO.o wiki setup.


> I'll adjust the wrapping so that we aren't asserting a wrong copyright and
> provide a better license link. This will take more work with the Apache CMS.
>
> When the time comes to standup an Apache hosted openoffice.org we show
> what we have, and keep on changing and updating.
>
> To me the only prerequisites to Apache hosting are:
>
> (1) align OOo site policies with the AOOo project - clearance from the
> podling PPMC and Mentors.
> (2) have appropriate license and copyright notices. - clearance from the
> apache legal.
> (3) have appropriate branding. - clearance from trademarks.
>
> What do you think?
>

this sounds fine really.


OK, take care
-K


>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Exactly where are you finding these PDL license notices?  The first one
> I
> >> found was on the "Open Office.org 3 Installation Guide", a PDF (or ODT)
> >> reachable from <http://download.openoffice.org/common/instructions.html
> >.
> >> If we *don't touch it* can't it be retained until a
> permissively-licenses
> >> alternative is needed?  I don't see a reason to be concerned that the
> >> authors/contributors did not properly execute the instructions of the
> >> license they have offered.
> >>
> >> That's not the concern, the concern is if StarOffice, Sun, and/or Oracle
> >> lost the paperwork. I suppose should we be presented with a copy of the
> PDL
> >> from an Initial Writer then we fix the issue.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>>
> >>> - Dennis
> >>>
> >>> RELAXED RETAIN, SUPPLEMENT, AND REPLACE SCENARIO
> >>>
> >>> If the notices are always in standalone documents such as the
> >> Installation Guide, I don't see any problem making them available the
> same
> >> way they are now.  They should simply be left intact.  They can be
> replaced
> >> by non-derivative replacements later, when there are Apache OOo releases
> >> that require different information.  I don't see why we have to hurry.
> >> Instructions for existing releases remain valuable to keep around.  I
> >> suggest preserving them right where they are, where people expect to
> find
> >> them.
> >>>
> >>> When there are releases from Apache OOo, supplementary documents could
> be
> >> offered.  That would be another way to provide specific information
> >> applicable to later releases.  I see considerable time before these
> >> PDL-licensed documents need to be supplanted. They might be retained for
> a
> >> very long time.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - Dennis
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:dave2wave@comcast.net]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 14:33
> >>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >>> Subject: Re: Concerns about all PDL website material
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sep 7, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>> I am stuck on a licensing issue with the OpenOffice.org website
and I
> >> begin to doubt if can do much with it other than rehost and correct
> obvious
> >> changes in policy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Please look at http://www.openoffice.org/licenses/PDL.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (Whether the PDL is category A for Apache is a follow up, but there
> is
> >> no point without resolving the following.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Specifically look at:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Required Notices.
> >>>>>> You must duplicate the notice in the Appendix in each file of
the
> >> Documentation. If it is not possible to put such notice in a particular
> >> Documentation file due to its structure, then You must include such
> notice
> >> in a location (such as a relevant directory) where a reader would be
> likely
> >> to look for such a notice, for example, via a hyperlink in each file of
> the
> >> Documentation that takes the reader to a page that describes the origin
> and
> >> ownership of the Documentation. If You created one or more
> Modification(s)
> >> You may add your name as a Contributor to the notice described in the
> >> Appendix.
> >>>>>> You must also duplicate this License in any Documentation file
(or
> >> with a hyperlink in each file of the Documentation) where You describe
> >> recipients' rights or ownership rights.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Appendix
> >>>>>> Public Documentation License Notice
> >>>>>> The contents of this Documentation are subject to the Public
> >> Documentation License Version 1.0 (the "License"); you may only use this
> >> Documentation if you comply with the terms of this License. A copy of
> the
> >> License is available at __________________[Insert hyperlink].
> >>>>>> The Original Documentation is _________________. The Initial
Writer
> of
> >> the Original Documentation is ___________ Copyright (C)_________[Insert
> >> year(s)]. All Rights Reserved. (Initial Writer
> >> contact(s):________________[Insert hyperlink/alias]).
> >>>>>> Contributor(s): ______________________________________.
> >>>>>> Portions created by ______ are Copyright (C)_________[Insert
> year(s)].
> >> All Rights Reserved. (Contributor contact(s):________________[Insert
> >> hyperlink/alias]).
> >>>>>> NOTE: The text of this Appendix may differ slightly from the
text of
> >> the notices in the files of the Original Documentation. You should use
> the
> >> text of this Appendixrather than the text found in the Original
> >> Documentation for Your Modifications.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Does it ever actually require that someone fill in the blanks in the
> >>>> Appendix?  I see that it requires one to duplicate the notice in the
> >>>> appendix.  And it permits (but does not require) initial writers and
> >>>> contributors to add their names to the Appendix.
> >>>
> >>> If no one seems to ever provide this information then what can we
> assume?
> >> If there is no Initial Writer then who holds the copyright? Where's the
> >> paperwork? Where does that leave us? Square one on the website and
> anything
> >> derived from PDL?
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Dave
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I can find no answer to the question about who are the initial
> writers
> >> and further contributors are for all most all web pages. There are some
> that
> >> have meta tags, but that is not following the terms.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Can anyone provide help here? Do most pages have an "INitial Writer"
> >> and "Contributor" of Oracle Corporation?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Would we need to see if the archives from prior to the kenai
> migration
> >> have enough history to determine "Initial Writers" and "Contributors"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Where are these appendices?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't see any point in working on the OOo website or transfers
to
> >> MWiki or CWiki without clarification.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Dave
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > MzK
> >
> > "There's something about the sound of a train
> > that's very romantic and nostalgic and hopeful."
> >                               -- Paul Simon
>
>


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK

"There's something about the sound of a train
 that's very romantic and nostalgic and hopeful."
                               -- Paul Simon

Mime
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