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From RGB ES <>
Subject Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache project
Date Tue, 06 Sep 2011 08:52:27 GMT
Well, Rob, you finally did it. I hope you are happy. I'm not.
Even if someone else can work the miracle and get the migration done
(I doubt it), you'll find that the resulting forum under your
conditions will be a place full of content, but without contributors.

2011/9/6 Terry Ellison <>:
> I think that there was perhaps a subtle difference in the basis of Robs and
> my comments here.  One of the PPMC members said to me in a side-email Rob
> was doing this trolling as a deliberate tactic to generate an antagonistic
> response.  I can only plea in mitigation that I meant what I said.  It came
> from my heart.  I wanted this service that I have help to create to continue
> and to be healthy.
> However this agenda is not about tolerance; it's not about working together.
>  It's about total control.
> Issues like necessary openness, conformance with Apache legal requirements,
> Apache branding are something that forum members wouldn't have a problem
> with, but what Rob's proposal also means is that the PPMC
>   * can appoint moderators administrators who don't have any track
>     record on the forums,
>   * has absolute power of veto over the same
>   * can abolish the tier of volunteers which is core to our working
>   * abolishes the ability of the forum members to hold internal
>     discussions in-camera (which would still be accessible to Apache
>     official audit)
> And so it goes on.  Hence whoever controls the PPMC also controls the forums
> absolutely, and all we know who sees himself in this role.
> Earlier tonight, I sat with my calendar trying to work out how the hell I
> was going to fit in all this work.  I have 14 days before my wife's imposed
> drop dead date -- she's booked the flights.  We've got 5 days away seeing my
> sister-in-law and helping support her in family tragedy.  I'll got to spend
> 3 days visiting my parents and give my siblings a break in helping to
> support an 89 year-old with dementia and her 95 year-old husband who is her
> full-time carer.  I've got to visit my daughter who has just set up home
> with her partner.  I have some jobs to do on the house,... I've wasted two
> days on Apache DLs because if I didn't the relationships between the forums
> and the project could fall apart.
> And now I've got to finish the packaging, documentation and migration or two
> systems to a standard that my infrastructure colleague seem to require but
> seems to exceed the level attained on many if not most of the current
> systems.
> I got flamed a few days ago, so I decided to disengage but do the honourable
> thing and finish all the work that was expected of me before doing so.  Now
> all this shit.   I got to sleep last night with the aid of alcohol and work
> up less than 5 hours later.  Again.   My waking thoughts were.
>   * Why the hell should I do this?
>   * Why does this "little puffer fish" (or tetraodontida as one of the
>     Mentors helpfully pointed out) have to take this shit?
>   * Why should I go through this personal heart-ache?
> Creating community projects is about creating communities; it's about
> treating each other with respect; it's about toleration -- albeit within
> some broad policy / legal framework; it's about creating something that we
> can all be proud off.  It is not about power and control.  It is not about
> allowing, even encouraging, individuals to walk roughshod over everyone else
> to do so.
> So my answer is that I don't need to do this.
> Hence this email is my last involvement in Apache and the Forums.  No more
> work.  Not more listening to attacks.  No more listening to support, because
> it just sucks my back in.  There's a finished forum instance -- a part from
> backup and management automation.  There's a v1.15.5 wiki but it still has
> PHP5.3 - V1.15 incompatibilities in it.  I've got both systems almost
> finished on my VMs, but its time to "savestate" them.  Between Drew and
> Andrew Rist you might be able to get access to the live systems to copy
> across the final live snapshots.  (Drew, could you also post this to the
> forums, if Hagar doesn't move it from the Admin Mailbox.)
> Five last words:
> Goodbye and good luck, Terry
> On 05/09/11 18:15, Shane Curcuru wrote:
>> Geez, folks, take a break; the heat in this thread is not helpful.
>> Then come back and work on specific issues in a more productive manner,
>> without all the pomp and fluffery.
>> Personally, I'd like to see more engagement and especially *education*
>> flowing in *both* directions[1] - along with an expectation that this is a
>> process that will take some time.
>> Both time in the technical sense, but also time in the community sense.
>>  There are a lot of individuals here with a long history of contributions.
>>  It takes education and time first to ensure that everyone is actually aware
>> of the basics before you can really have a cogent discussion.
>> - Shane <hat type="mentor"/>
>> [1] That means several PPMC members actually engaging in the admin forums
>> with the long-time contributors there, as well as more forum people
>> introducing themselves on this list.
>> Preferably in a friendly manner.

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