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From Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <>
Subject Re: [OT] What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache project
Date Thu, 08 Sep 2011 01:58:29 GMT

On 09/07/2011 05:39 PM, eric b wrote:
> Hi  ******  ,
> Le 7 sept. 11 à 22:03, Hagar Delest a écrit :
>> Le mar. 06 sept. 2011 17:36:10 CEST, eric b 
>> <> a écrit :
>>> No, Hagar introduced his pseudo, not himself.
>>> I wonder how we can trust people we don't know the identity ?
>>> Regards,
>>> Eric
>> First note that I'm not a PPMC or haven't any other role for the 
>> moment in ASF.
> Not verifiable, and pointless in the discussion.

Actually, it is trivially verified.... and possibly pointless to the 

>> The key persons in the forums and some in the ASF do know my identity.
> I read you consider some important people desserve to know your 
> identity, but not the "simple joe".

I assumed that it was not important. I know a guy who at work answers to 
John. His name tag says john, his paperwork says john, but John is not 
his name. Most people do not know that John is not his name. Seems he 
got tired of people who are not able to pronounce his name in this 
country, so, he goes by John.

I remember when the OOo team decided that you should have an 
"OpenOffice" email address. Seem that this added an obfuscation layer to 
the identity.

It is likely more important that the work is attributable. I suspect 
that without knowing me you will not simply give me super access. If, 
however, I have a well known track record then that may be different. If 
you use the OOo Forum, you have no particularly easy method to determine 
who any user is. An administrator can check things such as the email 
address that was used to register, but, even that means almost nothing.

I know the email address of the moderators, the administrators, and the 
forum owner at, but that does not mean that I really know 
who the people are. The moderators and such were given access based on 
performance, not on having run a background check and collecting federal 
tax identifiers.

That said, I understand your concerns, but, it is not clear how 
important they are in this context.

>> The ASF gives the possibility to get a public alias even when we sign 
>> the iCLA.
> That's a very bad thing. If so, it would mean some are the VIP ... and 
> the other people are "simple people" in the Apache Foundation ?

I expect that some layer is used so that a user can limit exposure. Did 
you know that some people call me (a volunteer) at home and at work to 
ask for help. I receive numerous direct email messages asking for help. 
This alone is a decent reason to keep some things segmented.

When I drive my car around, my name, address, and phone number are not 
readily available. If there is an issue, however, those "special people" 
called the Police can find me. I am far more comfortable with telling 
someone that they can answer questions on the board without being 
bothered at home knowing that the administrators can lock out the users 
if there is a specific problem.

>> So it means that there is no issue with using an alias. That's part 
>> of the Internet.
> We are not in the clouds, mention the bad side of the Internet is not 
> a good answer either, and FYI, this is no longer true : see the 
> current Google war around fake accounts: everybody must being 
> identifiable.
> Legally, I have even some doubts.

Yeah, been reading about that. See pros and cons for it.

>> What would be the point knowing my identity? My real name has quite 
>> no visibility on the web because I don't have any occupation having a 
>> public aspect.
> Again, nobody, excepted not identified people you pretend aware, can 
> confirm.

I can confirm. I have worked with the individual in question.

>> I don't believe in Facebook and so on for example so no account.
>> I think my credential in oooforum and forum is the only 
>> point to be taken into account.
> Imagine several people, all working in the same company, all paid to 
> provide support, and having the same login password ? I know I'm 
> exagerating, but there is no risk after all ...

But this is not what was stated. In that case, there is no way to 
attribute what is done in any way. Most people providing support do NOT 
tell you their real name it seems. You might receive a pseudonym (ie, a 

>> Therefore I take your comment as rather insulting.
> There is nothing insulting inmy comment, and well, I could say the 
> same about you.
> To be frank, more you insist, and more your behavior looks suspicious. 
> AFAIK, I read all people are equal in the Apache Foundation, and there 
> is sane legitimity to ask everybody in the group to respect the 
> minimum : being truely identifiable.

I can assure you that all people are not the same in the Apache 
Foundation, and, if they insist that people use their real name, I have 
no real problem with that. The disadvantage to our friend is that he 
uses an alias that is possibly easier to use than his real name so he 
will not be recognized as the same person here.

> The question is imho very important : is it allowed to cheat with the 
> identity, inside the Apache Foundation ? I sincerily expect the answer 
> is no.

If Apache says it must be a certain way, then that is likely how it must 
be. I do use my real name, and I deal with the problems associated with it.

> Eric Bachard

Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document:

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