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From Terry Ellison <>
Subject Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache project
Date Tue, 06 Sep 2011 04:39:12 GMT
I think that there was perhaps a subtle difference in the basis of Robs 
and my comments here.  One of the PPMC members said to me in a 
side-email Rob was doing this trolling as a deliberate tactic to 
generate an antagonistic response.  I can only plea in mitigation that I 
meant what I said.  It came from my heart.  I wanted this service that I 
have help to create to continue and to be healthy.

However this agenda is not about tolerance; it's not about working 
together.  It's about total control.

Issues like necessary openness, conformance with Apache legal 
requirements, Apache branding are something that forum members wouldn't 
have a problem with, but what Rob's proposal also means is that the PPMC

    * can appoint moderators administrators who don't have any track
      record on the forums,
    * has absolute power of veto over the same
    * can abolish the tier of volunteers which is core to our working
    * abolishes the ability of the forum members to hold internal
      discussions in-camera (which would still be accessible to Apache
      official audit)

And so it goes on.  Hence whoever controls the PPMC also controls the 
forums absolutely, and all we know who sees himself in this role.

Earlier tonight, I sat with my calendar trying to work out how the hell 
I was going to fit in all this work.  I have 14 days before my wife's 
imposed drop dead date -- she's booked the flights.  We've got 5 days 
away seeing my sister-in-law and helping support her in family tragedy.  
I'll got to spend 3 days visiting my parents and give my siblings a 
break in helping to support an 89 year-old with dementia and her 95 
year-old husband who is her full-time carer.  I've got to visit my 
daughter who has just set up home with her partner.  I have some jobs to 
do on the house,... I've wasted two days on Apache DLs because if I 
didn't the relationships between the forums and the project could fall 
And now I've got to finish the packaging, documentation and migration or 
two systems to a standard that my infrastructure colleague seem to 
require but seems to exceed the level attained on many if not most of 
the current systems.

I got flamed a few days ago, so I decided to disengage but do the 
honourable thing and finish all the work that was expected of me before 
doing so.  Now all this shit.   I got to sleep last night with the aid 
of alcohol and work up less than 5 hours later.  Again.   My waking 
thoughts were.

    * Why the hell should I do this?
    * Why does this "little puffer fish" (or tetraodontida as one of the
      Mentors helpfully pointed out) have to take this shit?
    * Why should I go through this personal heart-ache?

Creating community projects is about creating communities; it's about 
treating each other with respect; it's about toleration -- albeit within 
some broad policy / legal framework; it's about creating something that 
we can all be proud off.  It is not about power and control.  It is not 
about allowing, even encouraging, individuals to walk roughshod over 
everyone else to do so.

So my answer is that I don't need to do this.

Hence this email is my last involvement in Apache and the Forums.  No 
more work.  Not more listening to attacks.  No more listening to 
support, because it just sucks my back in.  There's a finished forum 
instance -- a part from backup and management automation.  There's a 
v1.15.5 wiki but it still has PHP5.3 - V1.15 incompatibilities in it.  
I've got both systems almost finished on my VMs, but its time to 
"savestate" them.  Between Drew and Andrew Rist you might be able to get 
access to the live systems to copy across the final live snapshots.  
(Drew, could you also post this to the forums, if Hagar doesn't move it 
from the Admin Mailbox.)

Five last words:
Goodbye and good luck, Terry

On 05/09/11 18:15, Shane Curcuru wrote:
> Geez, folks, take a break; the heat in this thread is not helpful.
> Then come back and work on specific issues in a more productive 
> manner, without all the pomp and fluffery.
> Personally, I'd like to see more engagement and especially *education* 
> flowing in *both* directions[1] - along with an expectation that this 
> is a process that will take some time.
> Both time in the technical sense, but also time in the community 
> sense.  There are a lot of individuals here with a long history of 
> contributions.  It takes education and time first to ensure that 
> everyone is actually aware of the basics before you can really have a 
> cogent discussion.
> - Shane <hat type="mentor"/>
> [1] That means several PPMC members actually engaging in the admin 
> forums with the long-time contributors there, as well as more forum 
> people introducing themselves on this list.
> Preferably in a friendly manner.

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