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From Joe Schaefer <>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] Support forums
Date Wed, 07 Sep 2011 03:05:22 GMT
Not everything people do needs to be scrutinized
to each PPMC member's satisfaction.  If you do that
without any concern for people's emotions you will
wind up with more outcomes like this one.  Some
things are better left up to people with enough
experience and expertise that minor organizational
problems can be "finessed" effectively without
major turmoil ensuing.  Part of why I offered
to mentor this project was to apply some of that
expertise here, but I feel so far my time has largely
been a wasted effort and am considering tossing
in the towel myself as a result.

>From: Rob Weir <>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 10:52 PM
>Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Support forums
>On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 8:25 PM, Joe Schaefer <> wrote:
>> Look Simon, while I obviously don't have the time nor
>> the inclination to comment on every suggestion made on
>> this list, all I've *ever* expected us to do with the
>> forums is to just start hosting it on ASF gear.  The
>> only modifications infra wanted were with respect to
>> bringing the codebase up to the latest available
>> version(s).
>> Frontloading this effort with a bunch of social and technical
>> red tape servesneither the ASF nor the goals of the Apache
>> Way, whichis supposed to involve gradual, evolutionary changes
>> toboth communities and to code.  Revolutions are not called
>> for at this particular juncture; it's hard enough work
>> to just move things over (both code-wise and community-wise)
>> largely unchanged.
>Joe, no one is asking for a revolution.  In fact I'm suggesting that
>the forum volunteers taking their time and think this through
>carefully before deciding.  Others were urging swift action, that the
>forums should be quickly integrated without any discussions at all.  I
>think that is the more revolutionary approach, bypassing PPMC
>discussion and consensus building.
>If we saw eye to eye on the broad strokes of collaboration but
>differed in the fine details, then I could see letting that work
>itself out as the Podling worked toward graduation.  But clearly the
>gulf of expectations was too large in this case.  We'll be close
>enough when we are confident that the details can work themselves out
>on the path to graduation.  I think we're getting closer.  You might
>think we're already there, or we're always been there.  That's your
>opinion.  Others may share it as well.  But if everyone but me thought
>that then we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?  Elephants
>aside, I may be the most obnoxious person speaking these views, but
>I'm far from the only one that thinks working out a common
>understanding now makes sense.
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