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From Joe Schaefer <>
Subject Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache project
Date Wed, 07 Sep 2011 01:31:20 GMT
Yes.  The ASF tends to think of projectsas ecosystems.
Most of the Apache ecosystemscontain lots of very small
individual players,but there are also elephants like IBM
too.  Someof the things the ASF does explicitly caters to
the needs of the elephants in order to attractthem to our
communities (think CLA).  The elephantsserve several useful
purposes to the smaller players,e.g. they are wired to knock
down termite mounds inorderto create watering holes.  But
their uniquerole shouldn't turn into an abusive relationship
withthe smaller players in the system, and a lot of that
turns on the perceptions of the smaller players.  IBMpeople
have historically understood this in theirdealings with the ASF,
but I'm concerned that a certainlevel of humility is not being
deployed properly byIBM folks here.

Today is a bit better than previous days,but there'sstill room
for improvement.  One day at a time.  I've said enough for now.

>From: Dave Fisher <>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 9:10 PM
>Subject: Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache project
>On Sep 6, 2011, at 5:04 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>> I'm tired of the one-sided blame game from both sides.
>> Suffice it to say that neither side lived up to the
>> expectations of the other, and generally poor communication
>> skills were on display all around.
>> Fixating on the past won't help us move forward, so I
>> suggest we just let this dog lie.
>Yes, we ought to let these dogs lie.
>What is important to note is that the tone for the last week has hurt the whole community.
At least three people have left. It may not have been this particular situation that caused
it as there was certainly many, individual, disparate reasons for each person's decision both
explicit and implicit.
>My parents taught me that if you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything
at all.
>Another way to think about it. What you send to this ML will exist as long as the archives
at the ASF, GMane, MarkMail, Nabble and other aggregators exist. It is a permanent record.
Before you press send think if you will be embarrassed to read your email five years from
>Best Regards to all no matter your personal preference or decisions.
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Hagar Delest <>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 6:35 PM
>>> Subject: Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the
Apache project
>>> Le mar. 06 sept. 2011 07:10:03 CEST, Pedro Giffuni <>
a écrit :
>>>> On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 10:52:27 +0200, RGB ES <> wrote:
>>>>> Well, Rob, you finally did it. I hope you are happy. I'm not.
>>>>> Even if someone else can work the miracle and get the migration done
>>>>> (I doubt it), you'll find that the resulting forum under your
>>>>> conditions will be a place full of content, but without contributors.
>>>> You can't blame Rob for a decision that Terry took on his own. It's
>>>> no secret he had problems with doing things the Apache Way and never
>>>> really got well with infra@. Quitting a job you don't like is a
>>>> right, and it's obvious he has more important things to think about
>>>> right now.
>>>> Pedro.
>>> Are you kidding?
>>> He worked hard to do it. The only reason why he left is because of the way he
has been treated by ASF people, not providing information when he was trying to comply with
the ASF way and being flamed when he did things without having the information requested.
>>> Who's to blame here?
>>> Hagar
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