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From "Daniel Shahaf" <...@daniel.shahaf.name>
Subject Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
Date Thu, 01 Sep 2011 22:55:05 GMT
Some concrete possible ways forward:

* Terry and Infra work together, migration continues, Terry sets up the service and documents
it alongside all the other Infra services.

* Infra assumes responsibility for the services and the migration.

* Infra sets up a VM and tells the PPMC to assume responsibility for the rest.  Infra has
oversight and access to all VMs, though.

* The PPMC finds a solution that doesn't involve Infra.  (eg, Board budget to pay for external
hosting)

On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 01:45 +0300, "Daniel Shahaf" <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> The problem isn't "Gavin needs to cool off".  The problem is "Terry and Infra need to
find a way to work together without constantly stepping on each other's toes".
> 
> On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 18:33 -0400, "Rob Weir" <robweir@apache.org> wrote:
> > You two are some of the smartest admins I know, and I've known a few.
> > With mastery obviously comes strong opinions and equally strong
> > working habits.  This is probably the largest migration effort Apache
> > has ever done.  It is certainly a huge effort from OOo's perspective,
> > since it is a technical, procedural and social change.  We obviously
> > really need both of your help in the coming days and weeks.   Can we
> > find a way to cool off rather than escalate?  Tomorrow is another day.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > -Rob
> > 
> > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Gavin McDonald <gavin@16degrees.com.au> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
> > >> Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 8:02 AM
> > >> To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> > >> Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > >> Subject: Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
> > >>
> > >> Dennis,
> > >>
> > >> The short answer is IMHO: that's correct -- No.  As to the long one: ...
> > >>
> > >> Oracle stopped its major funding of OOo as a mainstream product for sound
> > >> commercial reasons -- though this has resulted in personal consequences
for
> > >> a lot of people who worked on OOo and who no longer have a job.  Now
> > >> we've now got some services running unmanned, because the people have
> > >> gone.
> > >>
> > >> We were lucky as far as the OOo wiki was concerned in that I was already
> > >> providing expert support to the Oracle guy who ran the system, and I was
> > >> able to step in with his active cooperation before he "left the building".
> > >>
> > >> I believe that Oracle that wants to ensure a "bumpless" transfer to the
> > >> Apache project wherever possible, and it will find the necessary mechanisms
> > >> to grant project members who have the right technical skills and track
record
> > >> to take over these systems.  Our main problem is that this list currently
> > >> seems to contains one name -- mine, though there are others who could
> > >> potentially step into this gap: for example Raphael, Kay and Drew.  However
> > >> we are all already working to our limits.  Maybe we just need a cloning
> > >> machine :(
> > >
> > > Once we have documentation in place, any infra person can jump in and help
> > > should the need arise.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I feel
that
> > >> I am caught between a rock and a hard place.  My work is time consuming
> > >> and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo developer,
> > >> but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin.  In some ways you need
to be
> > >> an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate this expertise.
 I
> > >> am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about
> > >> hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine.  Again this
only my
> > >> personal experience, but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers
> > >> and this seems to be an endemic culture, albeit strongly advocated by a
few
> > >> individuals.  It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to domains
of
> > >> expertise outside its comfort area -- even though these may be more
> > >> relevant to the work and Apache's wider mission.  In short I am being
asked
> > >> to work long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional
> > >> environment.
> > >
> > > Nobody is asking you to so anything, you are a volunteer, you can do zero hours
> > > if it pleases you, Your hours are governed by what you want to put in, not
what
> > > anybody tells you to do.
> > >
> > > Please explain what you mean by dysfunctional?
> > >
> > > FWIW I've been bending over backwards trying to help you with infra stuff,
but you
> > > are a stubborn old git who will not listen to how we do things around here.
We have
> > > accommodated just about every need, every weird way you do things, now it is
time
> > > for you to listen to us and fit in with us. I've been prepared to help you
do this but
> > > then you just go and piss me off with outlandish emails like this one.
> > >
> > >  > If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I would be
> > >> seriously thinking about changing jobs -- and this is from a guy who spent
32
> > >> years working with the same company working to get to its top technical
tier
> > >> -- and also one who is now doing this work pro-bono.
> > >
> > > This is a volunteer organisation, guess what, you are not the only person here
doing
> > > work for nothing. Please do not yet again spout off your credentials or your
countless
> > > millions of hours spent on this, we KNOW, we are very grateful but I am getting
tired
> > > of you always shoving it in our face as an excuse for us to have to bow down
and do
> > > it the Terry way. We are not stupid, do not treat us as stupid. You are not
stupid, we know
> > > that. We are not here to piss you off, but you seem to trying very hard to
do that to me
> > > at least. Now, quit the jibes and learn to do things in a way that will please
us all.
> > >
> > > Gav...
> > >
> > >>
> > >> So we do have the means in terms of Oracle enabling, but we, the project,
> > >> don't have the resources / expertise to step up to this. If I am still
here in 3
> > >> months and this is still an outstanding issue, then I'll try to sort it
out.
> > >>
> > >> Regards Terry
> > >>
> > >> On 01/09/11 20:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > >> > Um, so your answer is no?
> > >> >
> > >> > You do not have any means to deal with that mailing list issue on
the live
> > >> openoffice.org site?
> > >> >
> > >> > Any suggestions?
> > >> >
> > >> >   - Dennis
> > >> >
> > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
> > >> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:04 To:dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> > >> > Cc:ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > >> > Subject: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
> > >> >
> > >> > Dennis,
> > >> >
> > >> > As we've discussed previously there is almost a "religious" split
> > >> > between those that work on forums and those that work on MLs and DLs.
> > >> > Very few of those involved in the governance of the forums would have
> > >> > anything to do with DLs/MLs and v.v.
> > >> >
> > >> > However, what you are really talking about is a configuration issue
of
> > >> > the mail forwarder.  It's more an application issue if we get control
> > >> > of the application support.  I have exactly the same issues with
my
> > >> > mail responder that is built into the forums.
> > >> >
> > >> >> Terry, do you know if those administrative controls extend to
the
> > >> >> management of the mailing lists, such as the ones for
> > >> >> http://fr.openoffice.org  (apparently at
> > >> >> <http://openoffice.org/projects/fr/lists>).
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Do you have any information on how we can empower someone to block
> > >> a
> > >> >> bad echo?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Every post to the more-heavily-populated lists there generates
three
> > >> >> notices fromservice-clients@sc.sfr.fr. Then we need to find the
> > >> >> subscribers whose e-mail addresses are landing at the responding
site
> > >> >> and disable those.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I also fear that there is nothing in our planned work to preserve
> > >> >> these portions of the openoffice.org domain.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> - Dennis
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 09:47
> > >> >> To:ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > >> >> Subject: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Anyone is able to join the OOo Community forums, but we also have
a
> > >> >> number of closed forums use for internal management of the site.
If
> > >> >> any committers would like to have access to these, then just make
> > >> >> sure that they've got an active account on the current production
> > >> >> service (not
> > >> >> ooo-forums.apache.org) and email me me from it requesting access.
I
> > >> >> will then raise you to "volunteer" so that you can see the main
> > >> >> closed forums.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Please note: the forum rules apply to all and all volunteers are
> > >> >> expected to follow them -- including me or any other committer.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Regards
> > >> >> Terr
> > >
> > >
> > 
> 

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