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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <>
Subject RE: Proposal: Forum integration
Date Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:14:52 GMT
Popping in here at random,

I don't understand the leap from oversight and having access to having ones fingers on the
buttons and dials.

My reading of what Joe said about oversight was that it did not have to be hands on in any
way, but that *inspection* was always possible and that everything that needs to be inspectable
be preserved.  There would be ways to intervene if ever called for.  (Site administration,
if I understand the intended technical sense here, is another matter.)

And while the PPMC might prefer that forum administrators be members of the PPMC, there are
going to be enough PPMC members there already without putting in unnecessary friction (at
least for the English and Japanese language forums).  Let's all get acquainted.  And maybe
use the committer/PPMC invitation process as our experience unfolds and there are administrators
we want to have be part of overall Apache OOo Podling oversight.

-----Original Message-----
From: David McKay [] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 14:42
Subject: Re: Proposal: Forum integration

On 06/09/2011 22:34, Dave Fisher wrote:
> On Sep 6, 2011, at 1:54 PM, drew wrote:
>> On Tue, 2011-09-06 at 15:25 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> Thanks.
>>> So would something like this work:
>>> Site admins must be PPMC members,  appointed by PPMC, with actual site
>>> admin assignment made by Infra.  In other words, only Infra has the
>>> skeleton key.
>> Yes I think everyone saw that as a given.
>>> Forum admins must be also be PPMC members, appointed  by PPMC.
>> Would change to:
>> Forum admins must be PPMC members and approved by the PPMC.
>>> The
>>> actual rights assignment could be done by a site admin, not involving
>>> Infra?
>> I think you mean the assignment is done by an existing forum admin,
>> therefore not requiring Inra intervention - yes? and yes. :)
>>> Moderators/Volunteers selected by the forum participants:
>>> 1) According to written rules which are publicly posted and approved by the PPMC
>> No problem with that.
>>> 2) Rules shall allow any PPMC member or Mentor to become a moderator
>>> or admin on request
>> I would not agree to that - any PPMC member wanting to come do the work
>> of answering questions, over a period of time, is free to do so just as
>> anyone else is free to do.
> I think a rule of the Foundation is that all Members can have access to whatever Apache
resource they desire.
> You'll have to accept Apache Members.
> Consider the slight possibility that a PPMC member who gets involved behaves badly and
disrespectfully in the forum management. There is recourse - ooo-private. Any PPMC member
has responsibility to the project and the ASF. Assuming that this proposal passes the Site
and Forum Admins will be PPMC members and have such recourse available.
> You ought to allow any PPMC member to perform any oversight they deem necessary within
the rules and culture of the admins. It is a responsibility of a (P)PMC to perform oversight.
Any of us should be able to check on others.
> Regards,
> Dave
That sounds more or less fine to me. I'd just add that you can't just 
turn up and become a Committer. Same sort of thing in my mind should 
apply with the Forum and moderation. you can't just turn up. you have to 
enrol and then participate for a while, and then be voted on. Same sort 
of principle. That doesn't preclude anyone from having visibility to 
anything meanwhile, which is the 'resource' we're talking about here.
>> In the case of a non PPMC member if that person then desires to take on
>> responsibilities there is a clear way to do that - first become a
>> volunteer, see how the sausage is made, still want to do this and you
>> want to be a 'standard' moderator no problem. If they want to take on
>> more responsibility then they need to do a few other things,
>> specifically to execute all the steps necessary to be accepted into the
>> PPMC, and get approval from the PPMC. In the case of a PPMC member they
>> simply then have to do that last step.
>> This is not about declaring some lingering ownership rights, this a
>> simple case of giving a little respect to the folks actually doing the
>> work - I don't think this goes against anything I've read about 'the
>> apache way'.
>> - of course that works as long as the site is functioning regularly -
>> but if say the whole crew up and leaves or the couple of admins all die
>> in a plane crash on the way to, oh I don't know, maybe the:
>> Ohio Linux Festival - this coming weekend, Columbus Ohio :)
>> then of course the PPMC can and would just appoint new people a needed.
>>> 3) Changes to such rules require approval by the PPMC
>> Agreed.
>>> 4) No PPMC approval required for new modertors/volunteers
>> Agreed
>>> 5) But no moderator has ban rights unless also a PPMC member
>> Agreed
>>> That avoids any PPMC review except for new Admins,  and for the
>>> Admin/Moderator rules which your draft yourselves among the forum
>>> volunteers
>> How does that sound?
>> //drew

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