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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <>
Subject RE: Concerns about all PDL website material
Date Thu, 08 Sep 2011 02:08:11 GMT
Dave, thanks for the additional detail and identifying your concerns.

I am not sure that there being lost paperwork is anything we can do something about.  I think
it is safer to assume that there was no paperwork.  It appears that the document I looked
at is authored by third parties.  Licenses are often attached to documents without much attention
to what the license implies or requires as part of that.

Here's what I'd like to see so this situation can be understood better:

  A.  I have never seen a PDL license on a web page or for the site overall.  I could easily
have missed it, but most of what I see is licensed quite differently and does not use the
PDL notice in any form.

To the best of my knowledge, PDL notices are only on documents (PDF and ODT) that are downloadable
from the site.  They might be on HTML versions of documents too.

Please say where you've found such notices anywhere else? Are these web versions of documents?
 Please provide information about where these are and how prevalent they are. Don't do an
exhaustive search.  Let's just find out if there is a pattern. A few URLs would be very helpful
in making an assessment here.

  B. Adding a copyright notice to something that is the work of someone else is not OK.  The
work is copyrighted by others even if there is no notice.  It is not OK to alter that in any

  C. License notices can be replaced/added *if* the Oracle grant names these works.  

In any other case, alternatives arrangements are required.

For the PDF/ODT case, I think the procedure I suggested in the previous reply will work. 
Maybe for HTML forms of documents too. 

Legal review would be helpful to clear up any doubt, once we are clear what there is and what
is to be reviewed.  That could be useful if only for reassurance that nothing inappropriate
is being done with the materials.

I can't be too clear about this: If there is any copyright notice or a PDL license notice,
please don't modify anything to which that notice or license applies.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Fisher [] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 16:57
Subject: Re: Concerns about all PDL website material

Hi Dennis,

I am under impression that the license for everything on OOo is PDL, yet almost nothing fulfills
the terms.

Copyrights are with the Initial Writer. If I can find an Initial Writer I will mark it - pretty
much only in <META> tags although that is whose OOo back in 2000/2002 created or changed
the page or some lists in some places.

As far as copyright where there is no identified Initial Writer should we:

(1) Have no copyright.
(2) Put the ASF copyright in place.
(3) Put an Oracle copyright on it.
(4) Put an copyright on it.

We can't do (3) we're not Oracle. We should stop doing (2).

Unless there is an argument in one direction or another I'll do (1) by Lazy Consensus.

I recommend that as we replace pages with AOOo policies that we create mdtext replacements
as fresh files.

On Sep 7, 2011, at 4:11 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

> Dave,
[ ... ]
> Exactly where are you finding these PDL license notices?  The first one I found was on
the "Open 3 Installation Guide", a PDF (or ODT) reachable from <>.
 If we *don't touch it* can't it be retained until a permissively-licenses alternative is
needed?  I don't see a reason to be concerned that the authors/contributors did not properly
execute the instructions of the license they have offered.

That's not the concern, the concern is if StarOffice, Sun, and/or Oracle lost the paperwork.
I suppose should we be presented with a copy of the PDL from an Initial Writer then we fix
the issue.


> - Dennis
> If the notices are always in standalone documents such as the Installation Guide, I don't
see any problem making them available the same way they are now.  They should simply be left
intact.  They can be replaced by non-derivative replacements later, when there are Apache
OOo releases that require different information.  I don't see why we have to hurry.  Instructions
for existing releases remain valuable to keep around.  I suggest preserving them right where
they are, where people expect to find them.  

> When there are releases from Apache OOo, supplementary documents could be offered.  That
would be another way to provide specific information applicable to later releases.  I see
considerable time before these PDL-licensed documents need to be supplanted. They might be
retained for a very long time. 
> - Dennis 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Fisher [] 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 14:33
> To:
> Subject: Re: Concerns about all PDL website material
> On Sep 7, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Dave Fisher <> wrote:
>>> I am stuck on a licensing issue with the website and I begin to
doubt if can do much with it other than rehost and correct obvious changes in policy.
>>> Please look at
>>> (Whether the PDL is category A for Apache is a follow up, but there is no point
without resolving the following.)
>>> Specifically look at:
>>>> Required Notices.
>>>> You must duplicate the notice in the Appendix in each file of the Documentation.
If it is not possible to put such notice in a particular Documentation file due to its structure,
then You must include such notice in a location (such as a relevant directory) where a reader
would be likely to look for such a notice, for example, via a hyperlink in each file of the
Documentation that takes the reader to a page that describes the origin and ownership of the
Documentation. If You created one or more Modification(s) You may add your name as a Contributor
to the notice described in the Appendix.
>>>> You must also duplicate this License in any Documentation file (or with a
hyperlink in each file of the Documentation) where You describe recipients' rights or ownership
>>> and
>>>> Appendix
>>>> Public Documentation License Notice
>>>> The contents of this Documentation are subject to the Public Documentation
License Version 1.0 (the "License"); you may only use this Documentation if you comply with
the terms of this License. A copy of the License is available at __________________[Insert
>>>> The Original Documentation is _________________. The Initial Writer of the
Original Documentation is ___________ Copyright (C)_________[Insert year(s)]. All Rights Reserved.
(Initial Writer contact(s):________________[Insert hyperlink/alias]).
>>>> Contributor(s): ______________________________________.
>>>> Portions created by ______ are Copyright (C)_________[Insert year(s)]. All
Rights Reserved. (Contributor contact(s):________________[Insert hyperlink/alias]).
>>>> NOTE: The text of this Appendix may differ slightly from the text of the
notices in the files of the Original Documentation. You should use the text of this Appendixrather
than the text found in the Original Documentation for Your Modifications.
>> Does it ever actually require that someone fill in the blanks in the
>> Appendix?  I see that it requires one to duplicate the notice in the
>> appendix.  And it permits (but does not require) initial writers and
>> contributors to add their names to the Appendix.
> If no one seems to ever provide this information then what can we assume? If there is
no Initial Writer then who holds the copyright? Where's the paperwork? Where does that leave
us? Square one on the website and anything derived from PDL?
> Regards,
> Dave
>>> I can find no answer to the question about who are the initial writers and further
contributors are for all most all web pages. There are some that have meta tags, but that
is not following the terms.
>>> Can anyone provide help here? Do most pages have an "INitial Writer" and "Contributor"
of Oracle Corporation?
>>> Would we need to see if the archives from prior to the kenai migration have enough
history to determine "Initial Writers" and "Contributors"?
>>> Where are these appendices?
>>> I don't see any point in working on the OOo website or transfers to MWiki or
CWiki without clarification.
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave

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