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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <>
Subject RE: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
Date Mon, 05 Sep 2011 00:45:11 GMT
So the poddling didn't even exist at that time.  Amazing.

Of course, there is no allowance for the incubation and podling transition in this note, something
that provides quite a bit more for managing a transition.

And they had no idea what they would see on ooo-dev at that time (nor did we), nor how they
would be approached by folks associated with the podling.

 - Dennis

PS: Yes, my use of "consent" was incorrect.  What you described, about not using material
that the contributor did not want us to use, is my understanding too.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [] 
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 17:21
Subject: Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 7:55 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<> wrote:
> I don't know that *anyone* has actually invited them.  They have been told what the changes
are, as in mailing list messages and the sudden transfer of Bugzilla.

Actually, there were offline discussions between me and the forum
admins back in June.  They approached me, asking how to be part of the
Apache project.  I invited them to join.  We had a thread where I
explained how Apache projects worked.  Every single one of the Forum
guys who are now claiming offense were on that thread.

I wrote to them a that time, in response to their inquiry on joining Apache:


Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 7:27 PM
Subject	Re: users forum present and future

[ ... ]
See here for more details:

The Apache Board appoints the Chair of a project's Project Management
Committee (or PMC).  The Chair is an Apache Vice President and is
responsible to the Board.  The committers in the project elect their
PMC members.  The PMC does the main planning for the project.  The
existing committers elect new committers from developers on the
project who have done consistently good work.  This includes coders,
but also contributors in other ways, such as forum admins.

So I think this works best if all forum moderators are also
"developers" or maybe "committters"  The admin role could also be a
"committer".  And someone who wants to take responsibility for the
overall user forums, from a planning perspective, and maybe associated
pieces like the wiki and the mailing lists, should probably be a PMC

Initially, we would just accept the current status quo (assuming that
is working well) and propose the existing moderators and admins.  But
in the future, as vacancies occur, I'd expect that we'd fill them per
Apache process, e.g., someone is nominated on the Apache project list
and we vote.   But this all starts with figuring out how your roles
fit into an Apache style meritocracy.

Would something like the above be a problem?  All OOo volunteers will
be going through a similar process, of mapping their roles into the
Apache system.  This is very easy for programmers and testers and
documentation writers, since all projects have those roles.  But with
user forum admins, I think this is something new for Apache.



The response I received at that time was positive, a stated intent to
work within the ASF meritocracy.  I have no idea why they are
backtracking now on that.

> I'm not sure that they know they can decline our offer, also.  That probably looks suicidal.
 I don't believe we do have the right to the forums if they do not consent.  Unfortunately,
we haven't approached them as folks who have a say in the matter and that we want to be welcome.

Consent?  We have just as much rights to the forums as we have the the
wikis or the mailing list archives.  It is not an exclusive right, but
certainly we have what is needed to host the forums.  If a particular
author objects, we could remove their content if we wanted to.  But
that is true regardless of whether the existing forum volunteers come
to Apache.  In other words, even if they do come to Apache, someone
could object to their content being hosted and we would probably take
it down.

[ ... ]

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