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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <>
Subject RE: [PROPOSAL] Move forum & support discussions to ooo-users@
Date Thu, 08 Sep 2011 20:11:16 GMT
Hi Shane,

I looked at all of the subsequent replies to this proposal and I think the discussion should
stay here.

I think better visibility would be great.  I don't think ooo-users@i.a.o will accomplish that.
 I think that venue is inappropriate.

 - Dennis


After looking at users@Oo.o and discuss@Oo.o, I think the conversation now on ooo-dev is not
likely to be too helpful on ooo-users, even if ooo-user were heavily populated (which it does
not seem to be by the light posting).

On ooo-users there have been questions from users about using OO.o.  What is missing are responses
from peer users or from user-helpful developers.  

The questions that come to ooo-users, beside ones seeded by some of us from ooo-dev, are typically
(1) how to subscribe, (2) when is their list going away, (3) will their list be preserved,
and (4) immediate practical questions about an use of OO.o or even how to get the latest OO.o
and (5) what/when *is* the latest OO.o?  On @OO.o the discussion is about being told that
those lists are going away and coming to ooo-users is the answer.

None of the discussions, on ooo-users or @OO.o are about forums.  In fact, there seems to
be a level of antagonism between those two communities (except from those who inhabit both
places or are simply happy where they are and indifferent otherwise).

There might be a place to discuss this kind of governance and futures conversation on the
Forums.  I think that is already happening.  

A place for outreach concerning lists might be moderators@OO.o.  I don't know of a place for
metadiscussions @OO.o (or for reporting problems with the lists, for that matter).


It is perhaps too soon.  Still ... 

On reflection, I don't think it was a mistake to create ooo-users.  

I do think it was a mistake to invite subscribers @OO.o to come here on notice that @OO.o
was going to be closed.  

This observation is not about the tone or other matters. It is about inviting folks here when
there is nothing here that is looked for when @OO.o is used.  

There is no ooo-user preparation for supporting what users are typically looking for.  And
to the extent that it is a peer-served resource, this is not the place to find those peers,

It seems there's a chicken-and-egg problem.  My thinking is that ooo-users is best left to
be bootstrapped by those who subscribe and rely on network effects to bring more folks in.

Meanwhile, I think cross-talk between @OO.o and the lists is more effective
and ooo-users could do well by referring folks to those lists until there is more reason for
users to be referred to ooo-users as a sort of mutual community cross-linking.  

It would seem that the shutting down of @OO.o lists is not a motivation for coming here, because
there is no here yet and there are better substitutes at hand, for now.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Shane Curcuru [] 
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 07:19
Subject: [PROPOSAL] Move forum & support discussions to ooo-users@

I don't know why I didn't think of this before!

[PROPOSAL] Ask the community to move all discussion of forums, user 
support, forum management or technical implementations, over to the 
ooo-users@ mailing list.


- ooo-dev@ is pretty heavily loaded, and this will reduce traffic for 
people just working on code, build, and code IP issues.

- Much of the discussion about forum governance and technology is coming 
from new (to Apache) users who have already expressed frustration at the 
high traffic volume on ooo-dev@.

- Issues of user support techniques and issues of compiler flags are 
really unrelated, and could easily be on separate lists.

- ooo-users@ is likely to remain somewhat quiet anyway until we have 
more progress with a deliverable to show to end users.

Note that this presumes sufficient PPMC members will also join the 
ooo-users@ list to ensure that we can get proper consensus on any issues 
there before bringing them up for [VOTE]s or the like.

Note: history shows that it's important to think carefully before 
opening new mailing lists or moving discussions between lists.  But I 
think it's worth doing in this case.

- Shane

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