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From Rob Weir <>
Subject Apache project community and external community
Date Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:30:00 GMT
(renaming the thread since it has drifted)

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Raphael Bircher <> wrote:
> Hi Rob
> Am 30.08.11 20:52, schrieb Rob Weir:
>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Raphael Bircher<>  wrote:
>>> Hi Rob
>>> So you want to split the community into a official apache and a
>>> inofficial
>>> extendet community? That will happend if you will fellow strictly the
>>> apache
>>> way. Then we will have the Development here and the rest outthere. If
>>> this
>>> is good or bad, I don't know. But if it's like that, we should start to
>>> organize te inofficial Community.
>> Are there some aspects of the Apache Way that the OOo community does not
>> like?
>>     * collaborative software development
>>     * commercial-friendly standard license
>>     * consistently high quality software
>>     * respectful, honest, technical-based interaction
>>     * faithful implementation of standards
>>     * security as a mandatory feature [1]
>> I'd be interested in hearing why these aspects of the Apache Way are
>> unacceptable.  Maybe it would help if you explained what you think are
>> the core beliefs of the OOo community and where they are in conflict
>> with the above.

Thanks for the good response, Raphael, this is useful to discuss.

> Not the points above but the flowing
> * That it's strange to organize Events under Apache

Of course Apache events will be organized by Apache, just like
LibreOffice events are organized by The Document Foundation.  That
should not be very odd.

Also, there can be third-party events, not run by Apache.  If these
events use the Apache name or project trademarks or logos then they
require coordination/approval with the Apache Conferences Committee:

I don't think this is a very severe constraint.  There are a lot of
informal "barcamp" style events that could be organized by project
members.  If we coordinate with the Conferences Committee I don't see
a problem here.  Things ranging from hack fests, etc., are all

What will not be possible is for an independent group of volunteers to
organized an event in their country, and call it "Apache OpenOffice
Foo" and hold this event without coordinating and seeking the approval
from the Apache Conferences Committee.  But if they do the
coordination, then I don't see a problem.

> * The Apache fundrising politic

That is harder.  An independent group could obviously do fundraising
on its own, but I don't see how it could use the Apache brands for

> * The fact that Apache has no concept what to do with people outside
> developing.

Could you be more specific?  Marketing, event organizing, fundraising,
etc., are all things that can be done in Apache, but they are done at
the ASF level, not at the project level.  Similarly, you don't see
anyone doing a fundraiser for LibreOffice Calc.  It is all done at The
Document Foundation level.

Within the project there are ways for everyone else to participate:
programmers, testers, documentation authors, translators, user
support, UI design, web design, etc.

> * The fact that only no permisive Lisence are alowed

This is certainly true for code and content that are part of a
release.  Apache 2.0 license is a key part of how Apache works.

> * The fact that we have to rewrite all the documentation including
> translation cause Lisence Issues

There may be other options here.  For example, when IBM donates the
Symphony code, we can also contribute the documentation and
translations.  This is all original work from us, which we can give
under ALv2.

> * The Fact that is nearly impossible to get a Native language List.

I think that is mainly a start up issue.  We're trying to avoid
premature fragmentation by splitting into too many mailing lists too
early.  We want to encourage discussions like this, which everyone
(hopefully) will read.  We'll get more mailing lists over time.  But
part of getting the community to come together is to get us all in the
same virtual room (this mailing list) and debate these issues until we
are said what we need to say.,

> It does not mean that we have a complete split. But same kind of activity
> has simply no place unter apache, or are so hard to integrate that no one
> will do it. So it's much better to do it outside, as to skip it or do
> nothing.

There are examples of this already, like oooforums, odfauthors, etc.
I think these projects like these could be done under Apache as well.
There is nothing procedural, technical or legal that would prevent it.
 A sign of a healthy open source projects is that it spawns
derivatives and other projects.  Look at Linux.  Look at OOo, with all
the versions and other projects it created.  This has always happened
and always will happen.  This is not a bad thing.  But I think we
still want to ensure that the "core" work on what we consider to be an
AOOo "release" occur in the project, under ALv2, according to Apache
procedures, etc.

As always there are forces that tend to split projects apart:

1) Desire for autonomy
2) Technical differences
3) License disagreements
4) Personality conflicts
5) Disagreement on level of formality
6) Disagreement on pace of work

and so on.

And there are forces that tend to keep projects together:

1) Shared accomplishment
2) Shared infrastructure
3) Economies of scale
4) Critical mass of expertise
5) Personal identification with project
6) Established user base and network of  after-market goods and services

and so on.

Every project, new or old, deals with opposing forces like this.
We're really no different than any other project.  We need to be
honest about what the challenges are and face them.



> Greetings Raphael

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