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From Kay Schenk <>
Subject Re: [www][wiki] Web, Wiki, and Participation (was RE: Making mailing lists useful ...)
Date Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:58:42 GMT

On 08/25/2011 02:56 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> On Aug 25, 2011, at 2:31 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>> Hi--
>> I think I deleted  lot of conversations in this thread and that is it a bit old,
but see below...
>> On 08/12/2011 10:25 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>>> On Aug 12, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>>> +1 on
>>>> " I think the value of opening up that list to a broader range of
>>>> contributors is worth the cost of the extra click."
>>>> - Dennis
>>>> In my experience editing a wiki and creating a patch are
>>>> qualitatively and quantitatively different.
>>>> Editing a wiki, especially one that is inviting (Media Wiki
>>>> qualifies for me, others not so much), provides for discussion and
>>>> has an important internet feature: disintermediation.
>>>> The appeal of wikis (and forums too) is that it provides
>>>> disintermediation on behalf of non-expert participation.  And it
>>>> has immediacy, something we must not undervalue.  You don't get
>>>> Wikipedia by a procedure that involves submitting patches. Not
>>>> ever.
>>>> I think every approach we assess here should be tested by how it
>>>> invites greater participation.  That does not mean we grant
>>>> committer status to every bloke who knocks on the door, because
>>>> that is about the provenance of the code base and the integrity of
>>>> releases.
>>>> There are amazing activities that benefit from end-user support,
>>>> peer support, and developers contributing in visible ways that are
>>>> not significant in terms of Apache licensing and issues around
>>>> releases.  But developers can provide perspective and transparency
>>>> using the community playground too.
>>>> So, for example, the main web site for the project needs to be
>>>> non-user-edited for technical as well as policy reasons.  Then one
>>>> question would be how little can we have there in order to gain the
>>>> contributions of non-developers/-committers in all of those places
>>>> where they can shine -- and perhaps be(come) experts of another
>>>> kind through those contributions.
>>>> The proper question, for me, is not how much to have under
>>>> committer control and PPMC-intermediation, but how little we can
>>>> have without increased ceremony and technical barriers because of
>>>> an over-riding consideration.  Very little should trump open,
>>>> casual participation.
>>> ++++1.
>>> On the wiki, a user may or may not have editing rights, but other
>>> than that the wiki is designed to allow change.
>>> The whole html vs mdtext question that Kay has been raising is all
>>> about how to work on the website in a most casual manner with the
>>> least amount of "ceremony". One of the key advantages of the Apache
>>> CMS is making it easy for Committers to modify content on the fly
>>> also makes contribution comparatively more difficult for
>>> non-committers. For non-commiters this means installing a whole
>>> document build system.
>>> One approach could be to modify the Apache CMS web-gui to allow
>>> non-committers to browse and make patches. I don't know how hard that
>>> would be to do.
>>> A search box on the main site can point to google and can search both
>>> the main site and the wiki.
>>> When we are ready to consider each OOo project site for conversion we
>>> should send an email to ooo-dev to determine which way that site
>>> should go - CMS or Wiki? We can label the thread with
>>> "[www][${project}]". We can also ask for someone to step up and lead
>>> the content conversion process for a project.
>> hmmm...well generally I think this is a very good idea. Should we get together a
list of the project heads and start this process now?
>> I might also suggest that by some consensus we put together a lost of areas that
we absolutely, positively DON'T want on the wiki for control reasons. I will happily work
on a wiki page with these ideas.
> Will you be editing
, or starting a new page?

Well I had actually posted my OWN thoughts on this page (in the last 

However, I could, of course, take out that last column (on the domains 
page) and recreate this whole table on the page you reference above and 
that way we could document findings (based on project lead responses) on 
the OOo-to-ASF-site-recommendation page.

Should I do that?

> Regards,
> Dave
>>> Regards, Dave
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: N�ir�n Plunkett
>>>> [] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 07:20 To:
>>>> Subject: Re: Making mailing lists
>>>> useful (was Re: [Proposal])
>>>> On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Rob Weir<>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I'm assuming that it is the new list subscriber that benefits
>>>>> most from this.  Existing subscribers will just follow the
>>>>> conventions they observe being used on the list.  Or do you
>>>>> expect to regularly check the wiki to see what new subject tags
>>>>> Simon has added?
>>>> I think it's highly unlikely that the new list subscriber will
>>>> read this in either location; I think the people who are most
>>>> likely to read it are those who've been on the list a few days, see
>>>> that there are a few tags floating around, and that the volume of
>>>> mail is hectic. (Yes, I know the static page says c. 57/day. I also
>>>> know that most people have no concept of what that means as an
>>>> addition to their normal mail flow.)
>>>> I expect those people not to be sure what to look for or where, but
>>>> I hope if they've seen a reasonably prominent mention on the static
>>>> page saying "This is a high-volume mailing list. Please use clear,
>>>> relevant subject lines, and consider using an appropriate tag for
>>>> your mail. A list of tags is available at [link].", that they'll
>>>> figure it out.
>>>> I think the value of opening up that list to a broader range of
>>>> contributors is worth the cost of the extra click.
>>>> Noirin
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> MzK
>> "Music expresses that which cannot be said and
>> on which it is impossible to be silent."
>>                             -- Victor Hugo


"Music expresses that which cannot be said and
  on which it is impossible to be silent."
                             -- Victor Hugo

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