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From Kay Schenk <>
Subject Re: [www][wiki] Web, Wiki, and Participation (was RE: Making mailing lists useful ...)
Date Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:31:02 GMT

I think I deleted  lot of conversations in this thread and that is it a 
bit old, but see below...

On 08/12/2011 10:25 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> On Aug 12, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>> +1 on
>> " I think the value of opening up that list to a broader range of
>> contributors is worth the cost of the extra click."
>> - Dennis
>> In my experience editing a wiki and creating a patch are
>> qualitatively and quantitatively different.
>> Editing a wiki, especially one that is inviting (Media Wiki
>> qualifies for me, others not so much), provides for discussion and
>> has an important internet feature: disintermediation.
>> The appeal of wikis (and forums too) is that it provides
>> disintermediation on behalf of non-expert participation.  And it
>> has immediacy, something we must not undervalue.  You don't get
>> Wikipedia by a procedure that involves submitting patches. Not
>> ever.
>> I think every approach we assess here should be tested by how it
>> invites greater participation.  That does not mean we grant
>> committer status to every bloke who knocks on the door, because
>> that is about the provenance of the code base and the integrity of
>> releases.
>> There are amazing activities that benefit from end-user support,
>> peer support, and developers contributing in visible ways that are
>> not significant in terms of Apache licensing and issues around
>> releases.  But developers can provide perspective and transparency
>> using the community playground too.
>> So, for example, the main web site for the project needs to be
>> non-user-edited for technical as well as policy reasons.  Then one
>> question would be how little can we have there in order to gain the
>> contributions of non-developers/-committers in all of those places
>> where they can shine -- and perhaps be(come) experts of another
>> kind through those contributions.
>> The proper question, for me, is not how much to have under
>> committer control and PPMC-intermediation, but how little we can
>> have without increased ceremony and technical barriers because of
>> an over-riding consideration.  Very little should trump open,
>> casual participation.
> ++++1.
> On the wiki, a user may or may not have editing rights, but other
> than that the wiki is designed to allow change.
> The whole html vs mdtext question that Kay has been raising is all
> about how to work on the website in a most casual manner with the
> least amount of "ceremony". One of the key advantages of the Apache
> CMS is making it easy for Committers to modify content on the fly
> also makes contribution comparatively more difficult for
> non-committers. For non-commiters this means installing a whole
> document build system.
> One approach could be to modify the Apache CMS web-gui to allow
> non-committers to browse and make patches. I don't know how hard that
> would be to do.
> A search box on the main site can point to google and can search both
> the main site and the wiki.
> When we are ready to consider each OOo project site for conversion we
> should send an email to ooo-dev to determine which way that site
> should go - CMS or Wiki? We can label the thread with
> "[www][${project}]". We can also ask for someone to step up and lead
> the content conversion process for a project.

hmmm...well generally I think this is a very good idea. Should we get 
together a list of the project heads and start this process now?

I might also suggest that by some consensus we put together a lost of 
areas that we absolutely, positively DON'T want on the wiki for control 
reasons. I will happily work on a wiki page with these ideas.

> Regards, Dave
>> -----Original Message----- From: N�ir�n Plunkett
>> [] Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 07:20 To:
>> Subject: Re: Making mailing lists
>> useful (was Re: [Proposal])
>> On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Rob Weir<>
>> wrote:
>>> I'm assuming that it is the new list subscriber that benefits
>>> most from this.  Existing subscribers will just follow the
>>> conventions they observe being used on the list.  Or do you
>>> expect to regularly check the wiki to see what new subject tags
>>> Simon has added?
>> I think it's highly unlikely that the new list subscriber will
>> read this in either location; I think the people who are most
>> likely to read it are those who've been on the list a few days, see
>> that there are a few tags floating around, and that the volume of
>> mail is hectic. (Yes, I know the static page says c. 57/day. I also
>> know that most people have no concept of what that means as an
>> addition to their normal mail flow.)
>> I expect those people not to be sure what to look for or where, but
>> I hope if they've seen a reasonably prominent mention on the static
>> page saying "This is a high-volume mailing list. Please use clear,
>> relevant subject lines, and consider using an appropriate tag for
>> your mail. A list of tags is available at [link].", that they'll
>> figure it out.
>> I think the value of opening up that list to a broader range of
>> contributors is worth the cost of the extra click.
>> Noirin


"Music expresses that which cannot be said and
  on which it is impossible to be silent."
                             -- Victor Hugo

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