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From Terry Ellison <>
Subject Re: [email] RE: [Discuss] ASF hosted email service [Was: Re: [Discussion]]
Date Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:25:48 GMT
On 21/08/11 15:18, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 5:21 AM, Terry Ellison <> wrote:
>> On 20/08/11 21:00, Rob Weir wrote:
>>> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>>>>  1. One has to do with where this is a personal
>>>> forwarding set up for some user (or entity) and it forwards to another
>>>> e-mail address.  If these are preserved, forwarding them to some 
>>>> other email
>>>> address to then be forwarded to the original entity does not make a 
>>>> lot of
>>>> sense.  The issue here is that the entity is known by that email 
>>>> address and
>>>> has connections that access that entity by that email address.
>>>>  It is a good idea to preserve that service so that the entities that
>>>> have use of the individual ones can somehow manage their forwarding.  I
>>>> would not want to figure out how to retire it until later, and with
>>>> considerable warning.  Having an individual's e-mail address 
>>>> disappear is
>>>> not a pleasant experience.
>>> ... How does this help us develop and publish open source software? ...
>> There seems little point in developing any FLOSS package which 
>> doesn't meet
>> the needs of its user population, as we will end up with an unused 
>> product.
> Sure. But we do see other open source end user productivity
> applications produced without the use a wide-open email forwarding
> service, e.g., KOffice, AbiWord, LibreOffice. I'd even included
> end-user oriented Linux distros and other apps like Firefox,
> Thunderbird, etc. So the email forwarder is not essential to
> success.
> In some cases, email addresses were made selectively available. For
> example, KDE makes them available to only core contributors, as
> explained here:
> "I am sorry but in the past, people misused their KDE email address to 
> tell
> nonsence about KDE and of course people thought that it was the 
> official KDE
> position, as they had a address. Unfortunately, it has not only
> happened once. That is why there is now the restrictive policy about KDE
> email addresses."
> Apache has a similar policy, and makes the email address available
> only to project committers.
>>  I repeat that targets the general PC-owning 
>> population as
>> its user-base.  This is very different to Apache Server, Traffic Server,
>> Subversion and the other Apache projects that typically have a niche IT
>> proficient and often IT professional user population.  Clearly, the 
>> success
>> of any FLOSS package depends on the support of a committed core of able
>> developers.  However, the success of OOo also depends on a wide 
>> community of
>> contributors, documentation and tutorial developers, community 
>> supporter and
>> even just power-users who can evangelise the product.
> Every person and every project wants to think that it is special, that
> it is different from all others. OK. That's fine. But let's not
> overstate the differences.
> Remember, Subversion has an awesome book [1], Apache has great
> tutorials [2], etc. They manage, somehow, even lacking thousands of
> evangelists with email addresses.
> [1]
> [2]
> OOo is not special because it has documentation and tutorials.
>> We have historically encouraged this community to use their oo.o 
>> mailboxes
>> to foster a sense of identity.  I know that I used to use my
>> address a lot: answering end-user emails and as my
>> email address for a range of forums, wikis and similar services.  I 
>> was and
> As I understand it, these addresses were given out freely to those who
> registered for Bugzilla. But I also see hundreds of Viagra spam notes
> in OOo Bugzilla. Do you see even the slightest risk here? The self
> identity of the volunteers is important. But so is the identity of
> the project, including the integrity of the trademark. It should
> never be ambiguous whether someone is speaking on behalf of the
> project. "Hats" at Apache are very important. We should not be
> giving out thousands of hats that suggest someone is an official
> representative of the project.
> If we're looking for ways to indicate support and promotion of the
> project, this can be done in many ways, from banners people can put on
> their websites and blogs, to email signature blocks.
> (IMHO, we also should all start being proud about being an Apache
> project and having an Apache email address. )
>> am proud to be associated with this project.  However, because I realise
>> that the address might go away, I had to trawl through my emails to 
>> work out
>> which services I had subscribed to using TerryE@oo.o and rehook them to
>> another mailbox: a real pain -- but less painful than suddenly 
>> finding out
>> that I had become disconnected from them.  So my answer is that 
>> alienating
>> our extended community of supporters would not be something that we 
>> should
>> do lightly.  OOo depends on their support.
> If we just pulled the plug, that would certainly be alienating. I
> agree with you there. But I still don't see these forwarding
> addresses as being beneficial to the project. Aside from avoiding
> offending the volunteers, you haven't shown why they are a benefit to
> the project.
> If Sun had sent a fruitcake to every volunteer at Christmas before,
> I'm sure we'd have people offended if we stopped doing that. But that
> does not make a fruitcake delivery service an essential part of the
> project administration.
> Ideally we never need to migrate the forwarding service. We keep it
> running on Oracle's servers as long as we can, and when they are shut
> down, the forwarding is shut down. But we need a good sense of how
> long that will be so we can give the users fair notice that the
> service will be ended.
> We also should figure out which addresses were used as official
> project addresses, for requesting or reporting information, like
> security vulnerabilities, etc. The set of official addresses should
> be treated specially and likely will require forwarding longer term,
> either to ooo-dev, ooo-private or ooo-security, as appropriate.
Your svn and Apache (server) response just emphasises our disconnect.  
OOo is aimed at normal mortals who don't even know what a command prompt 
is.  Could you imagine you grandfather, mother or young child wanting to 
use either of these?  Fruitcakes and viagra spam on a website are 
irrelevant to the continuance of a mail forwarding service.  Your last 
point is that we need a migration / mitigation plan.  On that point +1

I think this issue of the extended OOo community merits a thread in its 
own right.  Regards Terry

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