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Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 18:28:22 -0400
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Subject: Re: Refactoring the brand: Apache ooo + OpenOffice.org? (was
 re:OpenOffice.org branding)
From: Rob Weir <apache@robweir.com>
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
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On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Kay Schenk <kay.schenk@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 07/30/2011 11:37 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>
>> On another list, I saw a comment from Roy Fielding that resonated
>> with me. =C2=A0Others have mentioned it, but not here on ooo-dev.
>>
>> My interpretation is that we could have Apache ooo as the identifier
>> of the core Apache project built on what we factor out of the Oracle
>> grant, leaving OpenOffice.org as a web site and a family of
>> distributions and support for end-user and adopter/integrator
>> activities that reach out beyond the development of a buildable
>> open-source code base.
>
> This seems like a GREAT idea to me assuming it can be "done" vis a vis
> current conditions -- the Apache way, etc. Also see below
>


That has been the plan since the start.  We eventually have an
openoffice.apache.org web site that has the project-facing website and
services, like source repositories, dev lists, work by translators,
documentation, etc.  This is the web site where those who make OOo
work, the project community.

Then we have http:///www.openoffice.org, which remains the end-user
facing portal, the entry way to downloads, to support, to templates
and extensions, etc.

There are some services that have dual personalities, like bugzilla,
which is used by users as well as those on the project development
side.

This would not be an attempt to create an artificial division between
the project community and the users.  I'm very sensitive to that.  But
in this space, we really need an extremely easy-to-use,  slee, sexy,
consumer-friendly portal for end users. This is the face of the
project to millions of current and potential users.  We should have
hooks to draw them into the project community, for those with further
interest.  But we can't scare them initially with the bare-bones
standard Apache look and feel project site.

>>
>> I think we should consider that attempting to put OpenOffice.org atop
>> all of it is over-constraining and also confusing, even though the
>> result may be unrecognizably different at the end-user level.
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
>> MORE THOUGHTS BELOW THE QUOTATION
>>
>> [Disclaimer. =C2=A0This inspired my thinking but any misunderstanding of
>> what Roy was thinking is mine and mine alone.]
>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Roy T. Fielding
>>> [mailto:fielding@gbiv.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 09:51 [
>>> ... quoted by permission ] Subject: Re: OpenOffice.org branding
>>>
>>> [ ... ]
>>>
>>> BTW, my personal preference is to call our product Apache OOo and
>>> leave the OpenOffice.org website as a joint forum and
>>> redistribution site for all variations of the suite, docs,
>>> tutorials, etc. =C2=A0However, such decisions are typically made by the
>>> people doing the work.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>
> yes... +1
>
>>>
>>> ....Roy T. Fielding, Director, The Apache Software Foundation
>>> (fielding@apache.org)<http://www.apache.org/>
>>> (fielding@gbiv.com)<http://roy.gbiv.com/>
>>>
>>
>> MORE THOUGHTS
>>
>> I am not invested in the history or passion around OpenOffice.org as
>> an ongoing development. =C2=A0My perspective is as someone who works fro=
m
>> the open standards and architectural perspective. =C2=A0So I beg your
>> forbearance if I have been insensitive to the history and the
>> familiarity that there is in how things have been done over the
>> years. =C2=A0It is not my intention to offend but to see what we can see
>> by thinking outside of the box.
>>
>> I trust it is clear to all of us that it will be unlikely that we can
>> somehow revive OpenOffice.org to a place where it is a
>> business-as-usual continuation of the now-stalled effort.
>>

Not business as usual.  Business better than usual.  But this is not
something for arguing.  It is for doing.

>> Furthermore, my attention is on the suitability of Apache ooo as a
>> reference implementation with respect to ODF, with less emphasis on
>> what it takes to continue OpenOffice.org a desirable and thriving
>> software distribution. =C2=A0I'm in favor of that. =C2=A0It is not what =
my
>> attention is on. =C2=A0So this is not a balanced perspective.
>>


And why can't we do both?  Is there some reason why an application
cannot both be a good implementation of ODF and also be a thriving
product?  There are not mutually exclusive outcomes.


>> Here are some loosely-conceived thoughts. =C2=A0I don't have a clear or
>> specific picture. =C2=A0But I think the conceptual separation of ooo and
>> OpenOffice.org is an opportunity that might unfreeze us from trying
>> to move ahead under one giant lump.
>
> I agree...but...
>
>>
>> I favor the idea of separating the "pure Apache-way" project effort
>> and from the OpenOffice.org identity and "brand" as a broader
>> umbrella for all of the variations that go into making end-user
>> distributions, providing documentation materials, end-user support,
>> and especially the various native-language efforts that are part of
>> the OpenOffice.org ecosystem.
>

I've heard this idea put forward by LibreOffice supports as well.  The
brand name of OpenOffice.org is very strong.  The web site gets a lot
of traffic.  Far more than libreoffice.org.  Far more than
symphony.lotus.com.  I think we'd all love a link from that website.
Who wouldn't? If you look at other Apache projects you see that they
are quite liberal about providing links to distributions of downstream
consumers, including other ports, distros and derived applications.
This comes with a disclaimed that these are not official Apache
releases, but it does help give these other projects some greater
visibility and "link love".  See, for example, this Subversion page:

http://subversion.apache.org/packages.html

As you can see, there is also some degree of co-branding.  So there is
TortoiseSVN, uberSVN, visualSVN, etc

I've always assumed we'd do something similar for Apache OpenOffice,
provide links to other releases.  And if someone wants to call their
release "SuperDuper OpenOffice" or whatever, then we'd handle that
request via the normal process for Apache branding discussions.


> HOW to do this? I mean from a practical, pragmatic perspective. How will
> continued existence of what we might see as the "end user" OpenOffice.org
> architecture (servers, administration architecture) be carried out? What
> will we use, where will it be housed, how will it be administered it and =
who
> will finance it? I am QUITE concerned about the existence of the current
> site (on kenai). Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen a "drop dead" for
> removal of OpenOffice.org from this platform.
>

We've had discussions on the list on migration, some details here
(look at the website transfer row of the table):

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Project+Planning

>>
>> I also see separation as rather easy because at the moment we are
>> using "ooo" for these lists, for the podling's SVN repository branch,
>> for the two wikis, for the Apache Extras (although that has forked
>> already [;<), etc.
>
> um....see my last comments. Easy from a philosophical standpoint, but not
> necessarily from a practical one.
>
>>
>> I favor the idea of a cleaner separation of the development of the
>> core ODF reference-implementation aspects from wider variations that
>> are typical and appropriate for a production-usable productivity
>> suite. =C2=A0A distribution will have incidental and discretionary
>> provisions that aren't particularly indicative of the "reference"
>> aspects and have not been the subject of standardization.
>>
>> Important Context: There is wide latitude for discretion in the ODF
>> specifications and even wider latitude for user-interface,
>> non-UI-based processors, etc., that are not the subject matter of the
>> ODF specification at all. =C2=A0It would be good to remove confusion
>> around that. =C2=A0Also, a reference implementation, to the extent it is
>> usable in practice, should not be taken as being in any sense
>> compelling with regard to anything but its conformant support for the
>> file format itself. =C2=A0A reference implementation that can be operate=
d
>> needs to do something in discretionary areas. =C2=A0The incidental and
>> discretionary choices should be soundly done and well-narrated. =C2=A0Bu=
t
>> there must be no suggestion that the approach to such incidental and
>> discretionary cases reflect requirements of ODF. =C2=A0The user interfac=
e
>> and its functionality is not subject matter for the ODF specification
>> as it now exists. =C2=A0One wants ways to produce features of the format=
.
>> One wants ways to deal with provisions of the format in any input
>> that is processed. =C2=A0But the gap from input to user presentation and
>> interaction and from there to output is not prescribed in the ODF
>> specification, nor are mappings between different formats and the
>> treatment of different formats as defaults.
>>
>> I'm not sure how much the technology transfer/deployment would work
>> from Apache ooo to OpenOffice.org and that is something we need to
>> figure out.
>
> Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I'm confused.
>
> =C2=A0When we have the code and the collateral artifacts in
>>
>> hand, our inspection may provide insight into how we can get rolling
>> and also understand how the development can be modularized in a
>> productive way.
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
>>
>
> good discussion...
>
>>
>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
>
> "If you can keep your head when all others around you
> =C2=A0are losing theirs - maybe you don't fully understand
> =C2=A0the situation!"
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- Unknown
>