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Subject: Re: OpenOffice User Forums (was RE: An introduction and a discussion
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From: Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
In-Reply-To: <00b501cc4fbd$02bfa8b0$083efa10$@acm.org>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 13:59:50 -0700
Cc: "'TerryE'" <ooo@ellisons.org.uk>,
 "'Rob Weir'" <apache@robweir.com>
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To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org


On Jul 31, 2011, at 1:04 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

> Thanks for the great introductory note and discussion, Terry.
>=20
> I'd like to focus on this a little differently.
>=20
> Namely, sustaining OpenOffice.org as it is, at least in terms of =
user-facing and use-authored sections.  Core development and bug =
reporting might be factored out of that structure to integrate with the =
specific demands of the Apache project.
>=20
> I believe this is consistent with the planning that David Fisher =
points to:
> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Site-PPMC-Plan>
>=20
> =
<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Transition+Planning>=

> [Note that there are more forums than the Spanish-language one.  We =
probably need the full list.]
>=20
> Terry, can you help us answer some of the questions there?  Can you =
help us find other maintainers?
>=20
> - Dennis
>=20
> INFRASTRUCTURE RESTRAINTS?
>=20
> However we do this, there is an infrastructure hit, whether supported =
on a third-party service (requiring fees) or on the Apache.org =
infrastructure but with the OpenOffice.org domain and subdomains.
>=20
> There may be a technical barrier to operating this web site and forums =
on Apache infrastructure.  The PHP license appears to be Category A =
although I haven't found an official classification by Apache.  PHPBB is =
distributed under the GPL and that's problematic, especially with regard =
to customizations, i.e., MODs, that may have been made for the =
OpenOffice.org forums.  We'd have to determine whether there is actually =
a policy issue for Apache in terms of operating such software on Apache =
infrastructure.  It might be a non-problem, but we need to ask them.

I think it is already established. The license concern is mostly =
regarding release distributions and apache.org websites.

>=20
> [With regard to LAMP, I don't think Apache runs Linux - it appears to =
use FreeBSD wherever I've seen the OS exposed - and I suspect =
alternatives to MySQL, such as PostgreSQL are used as well.]

http://apache.org/dev/infrastructure.html

http://apache.org/dev/machines.html

There are Ubuntu machines, it looks like as part of the build farm.

Take a look at the "Jails - Services" and "Jail - TLPs"

> So how can we address this concern positively?  What solutions have =
minimal friction and maximum preservation and perpetuation of the =
valuable resource that the forums and materials are?  I think that is so =
valuable that we should leave no stone unturned in seeking a workable =
approach.

We are preparing to pull all of the main Kenai website into svn - =
perhaps with scripted rewrapping so that we can publish each as a =
project under the incubator site in preparation for release to an =
openoffice.org apache hosted site. I hoping to continue my efforts with =
this in the next couple of days and will keep people posted.

Before we start moving the whole OOo, I would like to provide a script =
for people to test. I'll be using the Apache CMS to do this work. The =
script is started and added to the svn next to the hg to svn scripts in =
ooo/trunk/tools/dev/fetch-all-web.sh

Regards,
Dave

>=20
> - Dennis
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:apache@robweir.com]=20
> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 12:05
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: An introduction and a discussion about the OpenOffice =
User Forums
>=20
> On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 9:49 AM, TerryE <ooo@ellisons.org.uk> wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>=20
>=20
> Hi Terry -- Welcome to ooo-dev.   Your note got caught in the
> moderation queue and was delayed.  This typical happens when you post
> from an address other than the one you are subscribed with.
>=20
>> My name is Terry Ellison and I am the lead community administrator =
and
>> maintainer for the OOo user forums (user.services.openoffice.org).  I =
was
>> one of the core of community members which set up the forums in =
October
>> 2007, and before that I was active on the alternative (English)
>> oooforums.org.  I am also a moderator on the VirtualBox.org forums =
and a
>> member of the QA team on phpBB (the forum application used to =
implement the
>> forums).  My contributions to the OOo development itself are small (I =
fixed
>> a couple of memory leaks in the Basic RTS and understand the code =
base of
>> this subsystem). I had 30 years service with EDS (now part of HP) =
rising
>> through system development, technical mangement to eventually =
operations CTO
>> for Europe, before retiring early because of illness (ME/CFS which I =
am
>> slowly recovering from)
>>=20
>=20
> The important thing here, I think, is contributions to the OOo
> project.  This comes in many forms, and contributions to user support
> are just as critical as contributions to the source code.
>=20
>> What I would like to discuss here is what we do with the forums.  In =
the
>> four years since their creation, we have added another 8 language =
forums to
>> the original English one: French, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Hungarian,
>> Japanese, Chinese and Vietnamese.  Across all forums we have some =
75,000
>> registered members, who have created 300,000 posts on 78,000 topics. =
We have
>> also gone through 5 phpBB version upgrades.
>>=20
>> However, the main use of the forums is not by the posting members, =
but by
>> guest users who browse these topics to find answers to their OOo =
problems
>> and the search engines which index the forum content.  We get roughly
>> 200,000 page requests / day (that is web pages -- the images, CSS, =
etc. add
>> ~4 x in terms of Apache requests).
>>=20
>> I and the rest of the OOo community activists believe that this =
content and
>> facility provides a valuable service to the wider OOo user community, =
so we
>> are keen to see its continuity and seamless transfer to part of the
>> Apache.org project.
>>=20
>=20
> Right.  This was discussed on this list in the early days of the
> project.  The typical Apache way to handle user support is via a user
> mailing list.  But I think it was generally acknowledged that this
> would not be sufficient for Apache OpenOffice.  The traffic would be
> very high and that in itself would deter both users from subscribing
> to ask questions as well as experts from subscribing to answer them.
> Forums handle that kind of usage pattern better.
>=20
> It was also brought up that we might want to try a specialized Q&A
> service, like StackExchange, for support.  Systems like these have
> mechanisms for rating questions and answers, and earning points for
> giving good answers, etc.  So there is an aspect of crowd moderation
> to it.
>=20
> But so far no one has stepped up to migrate the forums or start =
something new.
>=20
>> The technical aspects are a little detailed, but this was my =
professional
>> area, so these aren't a risk if I am allowed to support this.  I'll =
leave
>> these to further discussion and the appropriate cwiki page.  The main =
issues
>> seem to be of approvals, support, infrastructure resource allocation, =
since
>> the technology set used by the forums is phpBB + OOo-specific =
customisation,
>> and this is a new service for the current infrastructure team even =
though it
>> runs on a standard LAMP stack.
>>=20
>=20
> On the customizations, are they purely UI, or do we have functional
> patches as well?
>=20
>> The purpose of the note is to raise this issue with the wider =
community and
>> to provide a vehicle for discussing any related queries.
>>=20
>=20
> Apache has a "menu" of services it makes available to projects,
> including wikis, mailings lists, Subversion repositories, etc. If we
> want to get something added to that "menu", like phpBB, then we need
> volunteers to work with Apache Infrastructure to get it supported.
> This would require a critical mass of admin volunteers able and
> willing to support phpBB.
>=20
> Does anyone know, is there a good Apache-wide list that we could put
> out a call to other projects, to see if any of them would benefit from
> phpBB support as well, and especially if any of them have experienced
> phpBB admins able to volunteer to help get phpBB supported at Apache?
>=20
>=20
>> Regards
>> Terry Ellison
>>=20
>=20