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Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 14:25:15 -0700
From: Kay Schenk <kay.schenk@gmail.com>
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To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Refactoring the brand: Apache ooo + OpenOffice.org?  (was
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On 07/30/2011 11:37 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> On another list, I saw a comment from Roy Fielding that resonated
> with me.  Others have mentioned it, but not here on ooo-dev.
>
> My interpretation is that we could have Apache ooo as the identifier
> of the core Apache project built on what we factor out of the Oracle
> grant, leaving OpenOffice.org as a web site and a family of
> distributions and support for end-user and adopter/integrator
> activities that reach out beyond the development of a buildable
> open-source code base.

This seems like a GREAT idea to me assuming it can be "done" vis a vis 
current conditions -- the Apache way, etc. Also see below

>
> I think we should consider that attempting to put OpenOffice.org atop
> all of it is over-constraining and also confusing, even though the
> result may be unrecognizably different at the end-user level.
>
> - Dennis
>
> MORE THOUGHTS BELOW THE QUOTATION
>
> [Disclaimer.  This inspired my thinking but any misunderstanding of
> what Roy was thinking is mine and mine alone.]
>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Roy T. Fielding
>> [mailto:fielding@gbiv.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 09:51 [
>> ... quoted by permission ] Subject: Re: OpenOffice.org branding
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> BTW, my personal preference is to call our product Apache OOo and
>> leave the OpenOffice.org website as a joint forum and
>> redistribution site for all variations of the suite, docs,
>> tutorials, etc.  However, such decisions are typically made by the
>> people doing the work.
>>
>> Cheers,

yes... +1

>>
>> ....Roy T. Fielding, Director, The Apache Software Foundation
>> (fielding@apache.org)<http://www.apache.org/>
>> (fielding@gbiv.com)<http://roy.gbiv.com/>
>>
>
> MORE THOUGHTS
>
> I am not invested in the history or passion around OpenOffice.org as
> an ongoing development.  My perspective is as someone who works from
> the open standards and architectural perspective.  So I beg your
> forbearance if I have been insensitive to the history and the
> familiarity that there is in how things have been done over the
> years.  It is not my intention to offend but to see what we can see
> by thinking outside of the box.
>
> I trust it is clear to all of us that it will be unlikely that we can
> somehow revive OpenOffice.org to a place where it is a
> business-as-usual continuation of the now-stalled effort.
>
> Furthermore, my attention is on the suitability of Apache ooo as a
> reference implementation with respect to ODF, with less emphasis on
> what it takes to continue OpenOffice.org a desirable and thriving
> software distribution.  I'm in favor of that.  It is not what my
> attention is on.  So this is not a balanced perspective.
>
> Here are some loosely-conceived thoughts.  I don't have a clear or
> specific picture.  But I think the conceptual separation of ooo and
> OpenOffice.org is an opportunity that might unfreeze us from trying
> to move ahead under one giant lump.

I agree...but...

>
> I favor the idea of separating the "pure Apache-way" project effort
> and from the OpenOffice.org identity and "brand" as a broader
> umbrella for all of the variations that go into making end-user
> distributions, providing documentation materials, end-user support,
> and especially the various native-language efforts that are part of
> the OpenOffice.org ecosystem.

HOW to do this? I mean from a practical, pragmatic perspective. How will 
continued existence of what we might see as the "end user" 
OpenOffice.org architecture (servers, administration architecture) be 
carried out? What will we use, where will it be housed, how will it be 
administered it and who will finance it? I am QUITE concerned about the 
existence of the current site (on kenai). Maybe I missed it, but I 
haven't seen a "drop dead" for removal of OpenOffice.org from this platform.

>
> I also see separation as rather easy because at the moment we are
> using "ooo" for these lists, for the podling's SVN repository branch,
> for the two wikis, for the Apache Extras (although that has forked
> already [;<), etc.

um....see my last comments. Easy from a philosophical standpoint, but 
not necessarily from a practical one.

>
> I favor the idea of a cleaner separation of the development of the
> core ODF reference-implementation aspects from wider variations that
> are typical and appropriate for a production-usable productivity
> suite.  A distribution will have incidental and discretionary
> provisions that aren't particularly indicative of the "reference"
> aspects and have not been the subject of standardization.
>
> Important Context: There is wide latitude for discretion in the ODF
> specifications and even wider latitude for user-interface,
> non-UI-based processors, etc., that are not the subject matter of the
> ODF specification at all.  It would be good to remove confusion
> around that.  Also, a reference implementation, to the extent it is
> usable in practice, should not be taken as being in any sense
> compelling with regard to anything but its conformant support for the
> file format itself.  A reference implementation that can be operated
> needs to do something in discretionary areas.  The incidental and
> discretionary choices should be soundly done and well-narrated.  But
> there must be no suggestion that the approach to such incidental and
> discretionary cases reflect requirements of ODF.  The user interface
> and its functionality is not subject matter for the ODF specification
> as it now exists.  One wants ways to produce features of the format.
> One wants ways to deal with provisions of the format in any input
> that is processed.  But the gap from input to user presentation and
> interaction and from there to output is not prescribed in the ODF
> specification, nor are mappings between different formats and the
> treatment of different formats as defaults.
>
> I'm not sure how much the technology transfer/deployment would work
> from Apache ooo to OpenOffice.org and that is something we need to
> figure out.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I'm confused.

  When we have the code and the collateral artifacts in
> hand, our inspection may provide insight into how we can get rolling
> and also understand how the development can be modularized in a
> productive way.
>
> - Dennis
>
>

good discussion...

>
>

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK

"If you can keep your head when all others around you
  are losing theirs - maybe you don't fully understand
  the situation!"
                             -- Unknown