Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@minotaur.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@minotaur.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 34E1D4834 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 22:17:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 18833 invoked by uid 500); 27 Jun 2011 22:17:44 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 18787 invoked by uid 500); 27 Jun 2011 22:17:44 -0000 Mailing-List: contact ooo-dev-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 18779 invoked by uid 99); 27 Jun 2011 22:17:44 -0000 Received: from nike.apache.org (HELO nike.apache.org) (192.87.106.230) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 22:17:44 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.2 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (nike.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [98.139.212.177] (HELO nm18.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.212.177) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with SMTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 22:17:34 +0000 Received: from [98.139.212.150] by nm18.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jun 2011 22:17:13 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.229] by tm7.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jun 2011 22:17:13 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1038.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jun 2011 22:17:13 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 212379.45377.bm@omp1038.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 47620 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Jun 2011 22:17:13 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1309213033; bh=taCXbYQxa3GI7trk8oE0BZVq2cKpuuRlqd6P9TIm21k=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=M4ISXOA3RL3waIXQAkww2yqOsm77AnGahVu/0P9zHjMZWQ8qnbu6K6iSjcWmii0GLSsQOSkBeiA9u9ebCNwt8STTS6Qz9uR8bug74ewVfS7zUQzZwRu7RMUmphhelQXUq4lZ//tDTihppiPH/W22phwISNZTVRSFJ0iZ/+0tOF4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=f4D4dUtVAH9GnoYIgIqUVg0mlxYZYedZGDqCBv7jkMl1dnFSZoWtjEb+wcZcZrzq+mq3a0gD9hkomm4zhINitohirk35JUb3jP4SQ876iQe21UReigyiQ8zUROLesD4K0UD/Uc7zMQ6pIFzs5w6qXpKXwS8hcHnP0LdRFAscc7M=; Message-ID: <142866.23439.qm@web161425.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: kvIhlW4VM1kweTOVM7fDgx3.e4oLspZm_FxLV3CDU3nSV2T JseSMXZ7VFgbSrRk0fxG8gjX_cCaYylCZPw30XhyBErKVoNIXkswRxC5BkUz KkHaH7LGm4pajCiHa9ik4zc8JapGOCV9ki9UVn5LT8lhLmr7f6Tgb_K9VkdY MkkV3qBz0nh63PMc5SrYoZsfPVjYsBxkf0a7NBndmvxGh7ZzJVIxhlx84TB0 W9Bz_qMqAUGtlWefCo4BnHErjFKI4ssYNjrjT85vwQ5F.6RzgYUOiSpWMmkz PyAlQwCz90EavY62g063OCcCyZcoHYskG9zObCidX6I35reWNcsHuxHsnVFr pxwVB4FHXPVotKkpaZEPqhHcYuQ_FCMGKailXjcUkTeYxyXd6QBXklTepOjP ZkXDFzxLgSBQLCBj6Efx8k8D.glPzxzB0gpfdXYT21cteZptUbW6_jq3K5Y5 m1UJGexmTAH0W48wYOAcX4cfPiPTH0q1IqsDVqqJFRi.r_Q-- Received: from [99.135.28.65] by web161425.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 15:17:12 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/572 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.304355 References: <4E0897F8.6000402@gmail.com> <4E089E95.60106@gmail.com> <4AE3EAEA-11A9-4C85-9232-2F96E25D128F@comcast.net> <20110627190526.GA5409@daniel3.local> <167854.80737.qm@web161428.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <497335.3990.qm@web161423.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <898868.16827.qm@web161422.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 15:17:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Schaefer Subject: Re: Top level question on website migration To: Alexandro Colorado , ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1582963009-1381680000-1309213032=:23439" X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org --1582963009-1381680000-1309213032=:23439 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable None of what's done at Kenai or Collabnet has any bearing=0Aon how the Apac= he CMS works. Did you know it's compatible=0Awith httpd's content negotiat= ion features, so you can serve=0Aup custom pages for each language?=0A=0A= =0A=0A>=0A>From: Alexandro Colorado =0A>To: ooo-dev@inc= ubator.apache.org=0A>Cc: Joe Schaefer =0A>Sent: Mon= , June 27, 2011 6:12:07 PM=0A>Subject: Re: Top level question on website mi= gration=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>>On Jun 27, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Alexan= dro Colorado wrote:=0A>>=0A>>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Dave Fisher= wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>> On Jun 27, 2011, at 1:3= 1 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:=0A>>>>=0A>>>>> ----- Original Message ----=0A>>>>= >=0A>>>>>> From: Alexandro Colorado =0A>>>>>> To: ooo-d= ev@incubator.apache.org=0A>>>>>> Cc: Dave Fisher =0A= >>>>>> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:25:12 PM=0A>>>>>> Subject: Re: Top level = question on website migration=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:1= 8 PM, Joe Schaefer >>>> wrote:=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>= > ----- Original Message ----=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>> From: Alexandro Colorado= =0A>>>>>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org=0A>>>>>>= >> Cc: Dave Fisher =0A>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2= 011 4:06:43 PM=0A>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Top level question on website migra= tion=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Joe Schaefer <= =0A>>>> joe_schaefer@yahoo.com=0A>>>>>>>> wrote:=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>> ---= -- Original Message ----=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>> From: Alexandro Colorado= =0A>>>>>>>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org=0A>>>= >>>>>>> Cc: Dave Fisher =0A>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, Jun= e 27, 2011 3:09:33 PM=0A>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Top level question on webs= ite migration=0A>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:05 PM, D= aniel Shahaf <=0A>>>>>>> d.s@daniel.shahaf.name=0A>>>>>>>>>> wrote:=0A>>>>= >>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Fisher wrote on Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 11:54:20 -0= 700:=0A>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 2011, at 10:55 AM, Alexandro Colorado wro= te:=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about the rest of the questions:=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>= > - Do/Will apache.ooo have SSI (PHP/Python/Ruby/Ruby backend)?=0A>>>>>>= >>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really good question, but apparently not.= I think=0A>>>>>>> that=0A>>>>>>>>> there=0A>>>>>>>>>>>> are plenty of rea= sons for user support to require a dynamic=0A>>>>>>> server,=0A>>>>>>>>>>= >> but I think that is a separate discussion. Rob's discussion=0A>>>>>>>= about=0A>>>>>>>>> user=0A>>>>>>>>>>>> support ideas and your response has= me thinking Open Social.=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>> Serv= er-side includes are supported, eg=0A>>>>>>>>>>> http://svn.apache.org/re= pos/asf/subversion/site/publish/=0A>>>>>>>>>>> uses them.=0A>>>>>>>>>>>=0A= >>>>>>>>>>> Dynamic content is not supported.=0A>>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>> = Static content (however generated) is supported.=0A>>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>= >>>=0A>>>>>>>>>> Is it possible to have some CRUD?=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>= > Subversion is CRUD, and much more. Really you should take=0A>>>> advant= age=0A>>>>>>>>> of what the CMS actually offers.=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>=0A= >>>>>>>> Subversion is NOT CRUD. If I want to add a form to a site, I can= 't=0A>>>> get=0A>>>>>>> it=0A>>>>>>>> connect the data to a datasource in = SVN.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>> The sites are static, but they are generated from= a subversion tree.=0A>>>> So=0A>>>>>>> no,=0A>>>>>>> you can't "connect to= svn" from the site. But look at=0A>>>> www.apache.orgwhich=0A>>>>>>> has= lots of "dynamic" content tho it is also uses the CMS.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>= >> So having a sign up sheet or a=0A>>>>>>>> locate the closest OOo suppo= rt center. I can't make that with=0A>>>>>>> Subversion.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>= >> It isn't the point of the main website to provide signup sheets.=0A>>>>= That's=0A>>>>>>> something=0A>>>>>>> a link to a wiki page can provide. F= inding the closest OOo support=0A>>>> center=0A>>>>>>> is=0A>>>>>>> someth= ing a CGI script can do that has access to read-only data on=0A>>>> disk.= =0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>> Well I have ran main websites for projects f= or while, and I have=0A>>>> missed=0A>>>>>> this functionality many times.= We also were very frustrated with=0A>>>> Collbanet=0A>>>>>> and other stru= ctures asking for true dynamic platform.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> So far the only p= erson I see expressing frustration over the situation is=0A>>>> you.=0A>>>>= > If there ever comes a time that a sufficient number of OOo committers can= =0A>>>>> demonstrate=0A>>>>> some ability to maintain and operate a dynamic= website that isn't riddled=0A>>>> with=0A>>>>> chronic security flaws, inf= ra will be more than happy to setup a=0A>>>> jail/virtual os=0A>>>>> for yo= u to use as you see fit. In the meantime I suggest you learn to=0A>>>> mak= e=0A>>>>> proper=0A>>>>> use of the CMS.=0A>>>>=0A>>>> Joe, thanks for sett= ing the bar. It might be high, but I agree that if we=0A>>>> (AOOo) decides= that we need to have a dynamic website as some type of=0A>>>> support hub = that we have a big task that requires careful design and=0A>>>> implementat= ion.=0A>>>>=0A>>>> If we had a webapps that sits on Tomcat would that help = lower the bar, if=0A>>>> only slightly?=0A>>>>=0A>>>> Alexandro, I really l= ike your ideas that you expressed about linking OOo=0A>>>> users instantly = to a support network. Whatever might be developed by AOOo =0Ato=0A>>>> do t= hat will need to be very scalable. And if we mean dynamic then we =0Aaren't= =0A>>>> discussing mirrors so much.=0A>>>>=0A>>>=0A>>> I don't want to spen= d too much time talking about this simply because in=0A>>> LibreOffice this= topic was a huge and I mean HUGE flamewar that lasted=0A>>> longer than a = solar storm. Big +100 emails discussions, pretty scary=0A>>> scenario.=0A>= >=0A>>Understood. It does help to have specific examples so we really are t= alking =0A>>about the same topic.=0A>>=0A>>>=0A>>> Leaving that war scar as= ide, I mean from a simple thing like managing menus=0A>>> and contents (an = all traditional HTML structure is horrible). Things from=0A>>> news items, = to just organizing and updating the menus on every page of the=0A>>> site i= s a pain in the butt.=0A>>=0A>>Menus are in one place - sidenav.mdtext=0A>>= =0A=0ARight the issue becomes what happens when I need a localized menu and= who has =0Aaccess to that chunk of data?=0A=0AKenai and Collabnet both wor= ked the same way, they had multiple chunks of HTML =0Athat could be modular= , except the access was restricted and dialog was slow. So =0Awe never got = arround the localization issue. =0A=0A=0AIf you look at http://es.openoffic= e.org you will see that is heavily modified =0Aand a lot of CSS-display: no= ne was used so we could use what we needed. =0AObviously all this are hacks= and what it shouldt be. Ideally we would have our =0Aown HTML chunk that w= e can modify as needed. Hopefully easier like a YAML =0Astructure. =0A=0A = =0A=0A>> Special campaigns such as monthly web newsletters (in spanish of c= ourse). Or=0A>> Localize project wide menus (something I remember was a big= thing and we did=0A>> intense JS hacking to skip that). Was some of the th= ings that could have=0A>> been fixed rather easily with few lines of PHP.= =0A>> I actually started to think on a planet setup (planetplanet written i= n=0A>> python) which generate the whole page from scripts and spew HTML cod= e=0A>> everynight from different feeds. So I can script the whole site dyn= amically=0A>> on my localbox (let say in Python) and scaffolde the site int= o a folder that=0A>> sync with the server everynight.=0A>=0A>You can do tha= t in your people.apache.org account and cron the site build in the =0A>CMS.= =0A>=0A>=0A>> The issue here of course, is that if you have many maintainer= s this could=0A>> become a problem, just re-writing the whole site everyday= and integrating=0A>> changes from other people everynight.=0A>=0A>Someone = would need to delegate and if the person who does the cron disappears =0A>t= hen we have trouble and need to ask Infra to bypass, a real PITA.=0A>=0A>A = problem for later. ONce we have scripts, maybe we can ask for a project =0A= >account on people to handle this.=0A>=0A>ooo-commits would then track the = website changes as they semi-dynamically =0Aoccur.=0A>=0A>Regards,=0A>Dave= =0A>=0A>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>>=0A>>> There is a lot going on with Apache Lucene a= nd Hadoop and their many=0A>>> friends that could be put to use to build an= OOo user live QA / social=0A>>> network.=0A>>>=0A>>> But now I'm getting B= IG. Would you mind describing a few of the=0A>>> frustrations that you had = with Collabnet?=0A>>>=0A>>> Regards,=0A>>> Dave=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>>= =0A>> --=0A>> *Alexandro Colorado*=0A>> *OpenOffice.org* Espa=F1ol=0A>> htt= p://es.openoffice.org=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>-- =0A>Alexandro Colorado=0A>OpenO= ffice.org Espa=F1ol=0A>http://es.openoffice.org=0A>=0A> --1582963009-1381680000-1309213032=:23439--