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From Dave Fisher <dave2w...@comcast.net>
Subject Re: Top level question on website migration
Date Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:56:22 GMT

On Jun 27, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Jun 27, 2011, at 1:31 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> 
>>>> From: Alexandro Colorado <jza@openoffice.org>
>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>> Cc: Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>>> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:25:12 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Top level question on website migration
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>> 
>>>>>> From: Alexandro Colorado  <jza@openoffice.org>
>>>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> Cc: Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>>>>> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:06:43 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Top level question  on website migration
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:41 PM,  Joe Schaefer <
>> joe_schaefer@yahoo.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message  ----
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From: Alexandro Colorado   <jza@openoffice.org>
>>>>>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>> Cc: Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 3:09:33 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Top level question  on website migration
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:05 PM,  Daniel Shahaf  <
>>>>> d.s@daniel.shahaf.name
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dave Fisher wrote on Mon, Jun  27, 2011 at 11:54:20 -0700:
>>>>>>>>>> On Jun  27, 2011, at  10:55 AM, Alexandro Colorado
 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> What about   the rest of the  questions:
>>>>>>>>>>> - Do/Will apache.ooo have   SSI  (PHP/Python/Ruby/Ruby
backend)?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This is a really good   question, but apparently
not. I think
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>> are plenty of  reasons for  user  support to require
a dynamic
>>>>> server,
>>>>>>>>>> but I think   that is a separate discussion. Rob's
 discussion
>>>>> about
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>> support  ideas and your response has me thinking
Open   Social.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Server-side includes are supported,  eg
>>>>>>>>>  http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/subversion/site/publish/
>>>>>>>>> uses  them.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dynamic content is not  supported.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Static  content (however  generated) is  supported.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Is it  possible to have  some CRUD?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Subversion is CRUD, and much  more.  Really you should take
>> advantage
>>>>>>> of what the CMS actually  offers.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Subversion is NOT CRUD. If I want to add a form  to a  site, I can't
>> get
>>>>> it
>>>>>> connect the data to a  datasource in SVN.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The sites are static, but they are generated  from a subversion tree.
>> So
>>>>> no,
>>>>> you can't "connect to svn"  from the site.  But look at
>> www.apache.orgwhich
>>>>> has lots of  "dynamic" content tho it is also uses the CMS.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> So having  a  sign up sheet or a
>>>>>> locate the closest OOo support center. I  can't make that  with
>>>>> Subversion.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It isn't the  point of the main website to provide signup sheets.
>> That's
>>>>> something
>>>>> a link to a wiki page can provide.  Finding the closest  OOo support
>> center
>>>>> is
>>>>> something a CGI script can do that has  access to read-only data on
>> disk.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Well I have ran main websites  for  projects for while, and I have
>> missed
>>>> this functionality many  times. We also were very frustrated with
>> Collbanet
>>>> and other structures  asking for true dynamic platform.
>>> 
>>> So far the only person I see expressing frustration over the situation is
>> you.
>>> If there ever comes a time that a sufficient number of OOo committers can
>>> demonstrate
>>> some ability to maintain and operate a dynamic website that isn't riddled
>> with
>>> chronic security flaws, infra will be more than happy to setup a
>> jail/virtual os
>>> for you to use as you see fit.  In the meantime I suggest you learn to
>> make
>>> proper
>>> use of the CMS.
>> 
>> Joe, thanks for setting the bar. It might be high, but I agree that if we
>> (AOOo) decides that we need to have a dynamic website as some type of
>> support hub that we have a big task that requires careful design and
>> implementation.
>> 
>> If we had a webapps that sits on Tomcat would that help lower the bar, if
>> only slightly?
>> 
>> Alexandro, I really like your ideas that you expressed about linking OOo
>> users instantly to a support network. Whatever might be developed by AOOo to
>> do that will need to be very scalable. And if we mean dynamic then we aren't
>> discussing mirrors so much.
>> 
> 
> I don't want to spend too much time talking about this simply because in
> LibreOffice this topic was a huge and I mean HUGE flamewar that lasted
> longer than a solar storm.  Big +100 emails discussions, pretty scary
> scenario.

Understood. It does help to have specific examples so we really are talking about the same
topic.
> 
> Leaving that war scar aside, I mean from a simple thing like managing menus
> and contents (an all traditional HTML structure is horrible). Things from
> news items, to just organizing and updating the menus on every page of the
> site is a pain in the butt.

Menus are in one place - sidenav.mdtext

> Special campaigns such as monthly web newsletters (in spanish of course). Or
> Localize project wide menus (something I remember was a big thing and we did
> intense JS hacking to skip that). Was some of the things that could have
> been fixed rather easily with few lines of PHP.
> I actually started to think on a planet setup (planetplanet written in
> python) which generate the whole page from scripts and spew HTML code
> everynight from different feeds.  So I can script the whole site dynamically
> on my localbox (let say in Python) and scaffolde the site into a folder that
> sync with the server everynight.

You can do that in your people.apache.org account and cron the site build in the CMS. 

> The issue here of course, is that if you have many maintainers this could
> become a problem, just re-writing the whole site everyday and integrating
> changes from other people everynight.

Someone would need to delegate and if the person who does the cron disappears then we have
trouble and need to ask Infra to bypass, a real PITA.

A problem for later. ONce we have scripts, maybe we can ask for a project account on people
to handle this.

ooo-commits would then track the website changes as they semi-dynamically occur.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> 
>> 
>> There is a lot going on with Apache Lucene and Hadoop and their many
>> friends that could be put to use to build an OOo user live QA / social
>> network.
>> 
>> But now I'm getting BIG. Would you mind describing a few of the
>> frustrations that you had with Collabnet?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> *Alexandro Colorado*
> *OpenOffice.org* EspaƱol
> http://es.openoffice.org


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