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From Dave Fisher <dave2w...@comcast.net>
Subject Re: Top level question on website migration
Date Mon, 27 Jun 2011 22:55:12 GMT

On Jun 27, 2011, at 3:17 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:

> None of what's done at Kenai or Collabnet has any bearing
> on how the Apache CMS works.  Did you know it's compatible
> with httpd's content negotiation features, so you can serve
> up custom pages for each language?

What structure is needed in a CMS generated website to take advantage of multiple languages?

Thanks,
Dave


> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> From: Alexandro Colorado <jza@openoffice.org>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Cc: Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 6:12:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: Top level question on website migration
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 27, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jun 27, 2011, at 1:31 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From: Alexandro Colorado <jza@openoffice.org>
>>>>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>> Cc: Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:25:12 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Top level question on website migration
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> From: Alexandro Colorado  <jza@openoffice.org>
>>>>>>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:06:43 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Top level question  on website migration
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:41 PM,  Joe Schaefer <
>>>>> joe_schaefer@yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message  ----
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Alexandro Colorado   <jza@openoffice.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 3:09:33 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Top level question  on website migration
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:05 PM,  Daniel Shahaf
 <
>>>>>>>> d.s@daniel.shahaf.name
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Fisher wrote on Mon, Jun  27, 2011 at
11:54:20 -0700:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun  27, 2011, at  10:55 AM, Alexandro
Colorado  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about   the rest of the  questions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Do/Will apache.ooo have   SSI 
(PHP/Python/Ruby/Ruby backend)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really good   question, but
apparently not. I think
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are plenty of  reasons for  user  support
to require a dynamic
>>>>>>>> server,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I think   that is a separate discussion.
Rob's  discussion
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>>>> support  ideas and your response has
me thinking Open   Social.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Server-side includes are supported,  eg
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/subversion/site/publish/
>>>>>>>>>>>> uses  them.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dynamic content is not  supported.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Static  content (however  generated) is 
supported.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Is it  possible to have  some CRUD?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Subversion is CRUD, and much  more.  Really you should
take
>>>>> advantage
>>>>>>>>>> of what the CMS actually  offers.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Subversion is NOT CRUD. If I want to add a form  to a
 site, I can't
>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> connect the data to a  datasource in SVN.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The sites are static, but they are generated  from a subversion
tree.
>>>>> So
>>>>>>>> no,
>>>>>>>> you can't "connect to svn"  from the site.  But look at
>>>>> www.apache.orgwhich
>>>>>>>> has lots of  "dynamic" content tho it is also uses the CMS.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> So having  a  sign up sheet or a
>>>>>>>>> locate the closest OOo support center. I  can't make
that  with
>>>>>>>> Subversion.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It isn't the  point of the main website to provide signup
sheets.
>>>>> That's
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> a link to a wiki page can provide.  Finding the closest 
OOo support
>>>>> center
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> something a CGI script can do that has  access to read-only
data on
>>>>> disk.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well I have ran main websites  for  projects for while, and I
have
>>>>> missed
>>>>>>> this functionality many  times. We also were very frustrated
with
>>>>> Collbanet
>>>>>>> and other structures  asking for true dynamic platform.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So far the only person I see expressing frustration over the situation
is
>>>>> you.
>>>>>> If there ever comes a time that a sufficient number of OOo committers
can
>>>>>> demonstrate
>>>>>> some ability to maintain and operate a dynamic website that isn't
riddled
>>>>> with
>>>>>> chronic security flaws, infra will be more than happy to setup a
>>>>> jail/virtual os
>>>>>> for you to use as you see fit.  In the meantime I suggest you learn
to
>>>>> make
>>>>>> proper
>>>>>> use of the CMS.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Joe, thanks for setting the bar. It might be high, but I agree that if
we
>>>>> (AOOo) decides that we need to have a dynamic website as some type of
>>>>> support hub that we have a big task that requires careful design and
>>>>> implementation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If we had a webapps that sits on Tomcat would that help lower the bar,
if
>>>>> only slightly?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Alexandro, I really like your ideas that you expressed about linking
OOo
>>>>> users instantly to a support network. Whatever might be developed by
AOOo 
> to
>>>>> do that will need to be very scalable. And if we mean dynamic then we

> aren't
>>>>> discussing mirrors so much.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I don't want to spend too much time talking about this simply because in
>>>> LibreOffice this topic was a huge and I mean HUGE flamewar that lasted
>>>> longer than a solar storm.  Big +100 emails discussions, pretty scary
>>>> scenario.
>>> 
>>> Understood. It does help to have specific examples so we really are talking 
>>> about the same topic.
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Leaving that war scar aside, I mean from a simple thing like managing menus
>>>> and contents (an all traditional HTML structure is horrible). Things from
>>>> news items, to just organizing and updating the menus on every page of the
>>>> site is a pain in the butt.
>>> 
>>> Menus are in one place - sidenav.mdtext
>>> 
> 
> Right the issue becomes what happens when I need a localized menu and who has 
> access to that chunk of data?
> 
> Kenai and Collabnet both worked the same way, they had multiple chunks of HTML 
> that could be modular, except the access was restricted and dialog was slow. So 
> we never got arround the localization issue. 
> 
> 
> If you look at http://es.openoffice.org you will see that is heavily modified 
> and a lot of CSS-display: none was used so we could use what we needed. 
> Obviously all this are hacks and what it shouldt be. Ideally we would have our 
> own HTML chunk that we can modify as needed. Hopefully easier like a YAML 
> structure. 
> 
> 
> 
>>> Special campaigns such as monthly web newsletters (in spanish of course). Or
>>> Localize project wide menus (something I remember was a big thing and we did
>>> intense JS hacking to skip that). Was some of the things that could have
>>> been fixed rather easily with few lines of PHP.
>>> I actually started to think on a planet setup (planetplanet written in
>>> python) which generate the whole page from scripts and spew HTML code
>>> everynight from different feeds.  So I can script the whole site dynamically
>>> on my localbox (let say in Python) and scaffolde the site into a folder that
>>> sync with the server everynight.
>> 
>> You can do that in your people.apache.org account and cron the site build in the

>> CMS.
>> 
>> 
>>> The issue here of course, is that if you have many maintainers this could
>>> become a problem, just re-writing the whole site everyday and integrating
>>> changes from other people everynight.
>> 
>> Someone would need to delegate and if the person who does the cron disappears 
>> then we have trouble and need to ask Infra to bypass, a real PITA.
>> 
>> A problem for later. ONce we have scripts, maybe we can ask for a project 
>> account on people to handle this.
>> 
>> ooo-commits would then track the website changes as they semi-dynamically 
> occur.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> There is a lot going on with Apache Lucene and Hadoop and their many
>>>> friends that could be put to use to build an OOo user live QA / social
>>>> network.
>>>> 
>>>> But now I'm getting BIG. Would you mind describing a few of the
>>>> frustrations that you had with Collabnet?
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dave
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> *Alexandro Colorado*
>>> *OpenOffice.org* EspaƱol
>>> http://es.openoffice.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Alexandro Colorado
>> OpenOffice.org EspaƱol
>> http://es.openoffice.org
>> 
>> 


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