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From Rob Weir <apa...@robweir.com>
Subject Re: Contributors versus Committers versus PMC members - AND USERS
Date Sat, 25 Jun 2011 15:23:54 GMT
Thanks for the list.  I looked around.  Some lists are very active.
Some have not seen activity for a year or more.  Some seem to never
have been active.  And some are just full of spam :-(

I can see three ways to decide what to do (but maybe someone has other ideas?):

1) Recreate the structure of the OOo lists, making lists for all
language groups, whether or not they are active.

2) Define activity criteria for what we will create, such as number of
posts in last 12 months.  Create lists of whatever was active (by an
agreed on definition).

3) Create lists only when there is a sufficient number of project
members on the Apache list asking for new list.

I think I like approach #3 better.  There are downsides to having more
lists than we need. It fragments the discussion.  If we have 93
language projects with each one having dev/marketing/user, etc.,
lists, then we have 500 or so mailing lists, most of which see little
or no traffic.  Do we really want to recreate that at Apache?

Right now we have just a single discussion pubic list, ooo-dev.  I can
easily imagine, that once we have some code checked in and start
actively working on making our first release, that the traffic in that
one list will be larger enough that we'll want to split into
specialized functional lists, maybe:

ooo-general == general project discussion that crosses over functional
areas of project.  Everything that doesn't fit elsewhere goes here.

ooo-user == user discussion threads

ooo-dev == programming, including QA, UI design, accessibility, etc.

ooo-doc == help and documentation

ooo-translate == translation

I don't think we're there yet, but I can certainly see that happening
in the next few weeks/months.

It is also possible that when we get very active, that the
conversation level on ooo-translate becomes so high that we need to
split some language discussions into their own list:

ooo-translate-jp, ooo-translate-es, ooo-translate-pt, etc.

I think we might want that to be driven by actual observed demand.  We
can always create new lists when they are actually needed.

But I think for now we want to keep the discussion together in larger
groups.  For example, before we think of having a detailed group on
Japanese translation, we should probably have higher level discussions
in common, like:

1) Do we want Apache to host a Pootle server?  If so, we need to put
together that request and make it happen.

2) Did the Oracle SGA include all of the language translation sources?
 If not, we need to identify what is missing.

Another thing to consider is this.  We've all heard the complaints
about Sun/Oracle and how they managed the OOo project.  Maybe the core
development project was not as open as it could have been to outside
contributions.  Maybe the project leadership was centralized with
their employees.  Maybe the power was not shared broadly.  These are
all valid criticisms of *that* project.  The natural tendency of this
was to create satellite power centers in the language projects,
because that was the primary place where you were permitted a sphere
of influence and control.

I don't think the new Apache project needs to be, or should be, the
same way.  There is no central corporate control.  Volunteers from all
former OOo language projects are welcome, and are even encouraged, to
participate directly in all functions of the project.  I'd like OOo to
be a strong *global* open source project.

I guess I'm saying this:  Let's not automatically create the same
project structures as OOo had.  Those were partially created to work
within a corporate-led open source project that distributed power in a
very different way.  Some of the hierarchical structures of that
project were made to deal with that power arrangement and the friction
is produced.  Apache is different.

Of course, language differences and the need to encourage
participation by all is critical as well.  We may all speak C++ very
well, but not all speak English well.  But I wonder if things like
Google translate are now good enough that we could manage, with a
little patience and understanding, to have multilingual conversations
on a single list, at least until the traffic is so high that we need
to split the lists?

-Rob

On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Kazunari Hirano <khirano@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
> Please take a look at the Native Language Confederation Projects of
> OpenOffice.org page.
> http://projects.openoffice.org/native-lang.html
>
> Every language project has mailing lists.
> You can check which list is active or not.
>
> 1 - Afar - http://openoffice.org/projects/aa/lists
> 2 - Albanian - http://openoffice.org/projects/sq/lists
> 3 - Afrikaans - http://openoffice.org/projects/af/lists
> 4 - Amharic - http://openoffice.org/projects/am/lists
> 5 - Arabic - http://openoffice.org/projects/ar/lists
> 6 - Armenian - http://openoffice.org/projects/hy/lists
> 7 - Asturian - http://openoffice.org/projects/ast/lists
> 8 - Azeri - http://openoffice.org/projects/az/lists
> 9 - Balochi - http://openoffice.org/projects/bal/lists
> 10 - Basque - http://openoffice.org/projects/eu/lists
> 11 - Bengali - http://openoffice.org/projects/bn/lists
> 12 - Bosnian - http://openoffice.org/projects/bs/lists
> 13 - Breton - http://openoffice.org/projects/bre/lists
> 14 - Bulgarian - http://openoffice.org/projects/bg/lists
> 15 - Burmese - http://openoffice.org/projects/my/lists
> 16 - Catalan - http://openoffice.org/projects/ca/lists
> 17 - ChiNyanja - http://openoffice.org/projects/ny/lists
> 18 - Chinese - http://openoffice.org/projects/zh/lists
> 19 - Czech - http://openoffice.org/projects/cs/lists
> 20 - Croatian - http://openoffice.org/projects/hr/lists
> 21 - Danish - http://openoffice.org/projects/da/lists
> 22 - Dutch - http://openoffice.org/projects/nl/lists
> 23 - Dzongkha - http://openoffice.org/projects/dz/lists
> 24 - Esperanto - http://openoffice.org/projects/eo/lists
> 25 - Estonian - http://openoffice.org/projects/et/lists
> 26 - Finnish - http://openoffice.org/projects/fi/lists
> 27 - French - http://openoffice.org/projects/fr/lists
> 28 - Friulian - http://openoffice.org/projects/fur/lists
> 29 - Galician - http://openoffice.org/projects/gl/lists
> 30 - Gaelic Irish - http://openoffice.org/projects/ga/lists
> 31 - Gaelic Scottish - http://openoffice.org/projects/gd/lists
> 32 - Georgian - http://openoffice.org/projects/ka/lists
> 33 - German - http://openoffice.org/projects/de/lists
> 34 - Greek - http://openoffice.org/projects/el/lists
> 35 - Gujarati - http://openoffice.org/projects/gu/lists
> 36 - Haitian Creole - http://openoffice.org/projects/ht/lists
> 37 - Hebrew - http://openoffice.org/projects/he/lists
> 38 - Hindi - http://openoffice.org/projects/hi/lists
> 39 - Hungarian - http://openoffice.org/projects/hu/lists
> 40 - Icelandic - http://openoffice.org/projects/is/lists
> 41 - Indonesian - http://openoffice.org/projects/id/lists
> 42 - Irish Gaelic - http://openoffice.org/projects/ga/lists
> 43 - Italiano - http://openoffice.org/projects/it/lists
> 44 - Japanese - http://openoffice.org/projects/ja/lists
> 45 - Khmer - http://openoffice.org/projects/km/lists
> 46 - Korean - http://openoffice.org/projects/ko/lists
> 47 - Kurdish - http://openoffice.org/projects/ku/lists
> 48 - Lao - http://openoffice.org/projects/lo/lists
> 49 - Latvian - http://openoffice.org/projects/lv/lists
> 50 - Lithuanian - http://openoffice.org/projects/lt/lists
> 51 - Macedonian - http://openoffice.org/projects/mk/lists
> 52 - Malayalam - http://openoffice.org/projects/ml/lists
> 53 - Marathi - http://openoffice.org/projects/mr/lists
> 54 - Malagasy - http://openoffice.org/projects/mg/lists
> 55 - Malaysian - http://openoffice.org/projects/ms/lists
> 56 - Miskito - http://openoffice.org/projects/miq/lists
> 57 - Mongolian - http://openoffice.org/projects/mn/lists
> 58 - Nepali - http://openoffice.org/projects/ne/lists
> 59 - Norwegian - http://openoffice.org/projects/no/lists
> 60 - Oromoo - http://openoffice.org/projects/om/lists
> 61 - Papmiento - http://openoffice.org/projects/pa/lists
> 62 - Pashto - http://openoffice.org/projects/ps/lists
> 63 - Persian - http://openoffice.org/projects/fa/lists
> 64 - Polish - http://openoffice.org/projects/pl/lists
> 65 - Portuguese - http://openoffice.org/projects/pt/lists
> 66 - Portuguese of Brasil - http://openoffice.org/projects/br-pt/lists
> 67 - Punjabi - http://openoffice.org/projects/pa/lists
> 68 - Romanian - http://openoffice.org/projects/ro/lists
> 69 - Russian - http://openoffice.org/projects/ru/lists
> 70 - Sängö - http://openoffice.org/projects/sg/lists
> 71 - Serbian - http://openoffice.org/projects/sr/lists
> 72 - Shuswa - http://openoffice.org/projects/shs/lists
> 73 - Sidama - http://openoffice.org/projects/dm/lists
> 74 - Sinhala - http://openoffice.org/projects/si/lists
> 75 - Slovenian - http://openoffice.org/projects/sl/lists
> 76 - Slovakian - http://openoffice.org/projects/sk/lists
> 77 - Somali - http://openoffice.org/projects/so/lists
> 78 - Spanish - http://openoffice.org/projects/es/lists
> 79 - Swedish - http://openoffice.org/projects/sv/lists
> 80 - Tajik - http://openoffice.org/projects/tg/lists
> 81 - Tamil - http://openoffice.org/projects/ta/lists
> 82 - Tatar - http://openoffice.org/projects/tt-crh/lists
> 83 - Telugu - http://openoffice.org/projects/te/lists
> 84 - Tetum - http://openoffice.org/projects/tet/lists
> 85 - Thai - http://openoffice.org/projects/th/lists
> 86 - Tibetan - http://openoffice.org/projects/bo/lists
> 87 - Tigrinya - http://openoffice.org/projects//lists
> 88 - Turkish - http://openoffice.org/projects/tr/lists
> 89 - Ukrainian - http://openoffice.org/projects/uk/lists
> 90 - Urdu - http://openoffice.org/projects/urd/lists
> 91 - Uzbek - http://openoffice.org/projects/uz/lists
> 92 - Vietnamese - http://openoffice.org/projects/vi/lists
> 93 - Welsh - http://openoffice.org/projects/cy/lists
>
> Thanks,
> khirano
>

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