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From Rob Weir <apa...@robweir.com>
Subject Re: What do we do at Apache versus what do we do elsewhere?
Date Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:41:37 GMT
Could you say a little about "subprojects" and how they work at
Apache?  Are they the same as "components"? Do they have their own
PMCs and their own list of committers?

-Rob

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 5:23 AM, Christian Grobmeier
<grobmeier@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rob,
>
>> And then there are other functions that helped promote and support the
>> releases and the users who adopted the releases:
>>
>>   - marketing
>>   - support forums
>>   - event organizers
>>   - and many other similar functions
>>
>> I think these groups are welcome to join the Apache project, but they would
>> need to consider the trade-offs.   If they have autonomy now, run their own
>> servers, elect or appoint their own leaders, etc., then moving to Apache
>> means merging their structures into the Apache project, mapping their roles
>> into contributor/committer/PMC member roles, adopting their web sites to the
>> Apache infrastructure, working openly on the Apache mailing lists, allowing
>> anyone to work on it, as well as allowing anyone to review and comment on
>> their work.  In other words, they give up some control and in return have a
>> potentially larger group of people to help them.
>
> You are right, they share control. This is what every apache project
> has to consider. But anyway I would welcome every of the groups which
> wants to join. There is a Community project at the ASF (Ross is active
> there) and there is an Event-Project around, who already organize
> Barcamps and such things. I can imagine that a merge of that groups to
> the other ASF groups will give some kind of turboboost to all related
> parties.
>
> Marketing: this is so important for ooo. Do you think it would be
> efficient to let them do their job "somewhere outside"? I am afraid in
> that case communication will start leaking and marketing will finally
> stop somehow. The near "location" of these two groups, dev and
> marketing is a benefit. And if marketing people would like to join, I
> think I would be very glad.
>
>> But let's be honest.  If the Romanian language project decided to work
>> entirely in Apache on their translations, the chances are that very few
>> existing Apache members would be of much assistance to them, as a volunteer
>> or as a reviewer.  So I'm not seeing a compelling benefit for all of the
>> language projects to join Apache.  But I could see something like this:
>>
>>   - Language projects remain autonomous, but agree to put a compatible
>>   license on all of their work, e.g., the Apache 2.0 license
>>   - Each language project appoints one of their members to join the Apache
>>   OOo list, so we can stay coordinated.
>>   - Ideally, there will be one or more volunteers from the language
>>   projects who get more involved, in larger localization issues, and via their
>>   feedback and patches, ensure that OOo continues to meet the needs of a
>>   international audience.  These volunteers would likely then be voted in as
>>   committers and PMC members.
>
> So, if the language projects are outside from the ASF, do we need to
> copy over their files into our own source control? Or is it "just a
> dependency"? If we need to copy the files over, how can we make sure
> the IP is clean?
>
> Maybe the language project should be treated as an own subproject
> within OOo. But I don't think it would be so much easier for all the
> language people to stay outside the project. At least when you start
> having some "core volunteers" at the ASF doing the bigger chunks
> you'll end up having a i18n structure at the ooo project and probably
> a subproject.
>
> At least I guess it is not very motivating for people. I mean, one
> could say, he has done something for OOo, but is not part of the team.
>
>> For marketing, user forums, event organizers, etc., I can easily see these
>> being done in the Apache project, to the extent they are "international" in
>> scope.  But It isn't clear how in an Apache project we would coordinate a
>> group that, for example, was only interested in planning marketing, support
>> and events for Romanian OOo users.
>
> Please look at this page:
> http://barcamp.org/
>
> This might be a good starting point for such a discussion.
>
> I am not 100% sure how these barcamp stuff all works. I just know
> there are ASF fellows who work with that.
>
> Additionally we could collaborate with community.apache.org.
>
> If we can propose some kind of a standard way for the organizing
> people, then we have made the game. I somehow believe it could happen
> with the three elements:
> - Orga-ooo for generel questions, tipps, announcments
> - community.apache.org for - no idea - ASF wide marketing, help,
> community building?
> - barcamp for the organizing of events
>
>
>> I'd be interested in other views on this.  In particular, if we went down
>> the other road, and assimilated all language projects into Apache, how does
>> the process of lose consensus and meritocracy work if project members are
>> segregated into mailing lists where discussions occur in, e,g., Romanian.
>
> Good question.
>
> My first idea would be, ooo needs subprojects.
>
> ooo-language as a global i18n container
> ooo-romania as a local part of this project
>
> I believe the romania people can have their consens on language
> related matters on their own (wording, grammar etc.).
> For all things which are more global (whatever that could be) the
> ooo-language list is needed. For example, format of the i18n files,
> new language discussions, or other decisions.
>
>
>> So in summary, I think the different function groups need to consider the
>> costs and benefits of adapting to an Apache project model, which would
>> include:
>
> Yes.
>
> Not sure what the others mentors say. But my personal feeling is, a
> project should work on one place. I am not sure if a separated ooo
> will survive.
>
> BTW, my answer are feelings and opinions, not "mentor advises". In
> fact I have no experience with what I responded too and just want to
> help to get out the best.
>
> Cheers,
> Christian
>
>>
>>   - Working openly on the Apache mailing lists, allowing anyone to
>>   participate and allowing anyone to review your work, and potentially even
>>   veto it.
>>   - Moving servers and websites onto Apache infrastructure
>>   - Giving up titles from other organizations and working in the Apache
>>   project meritocracy
>>   - Agreeing that your product contributions will be available under Apache
>>   2.0 license
>>
>>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.grobmeier.de
>

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