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From Alexandro Colorado <...@openoffice.org>
Subject Re: Contributors versus Committers versus PMC members - AND USERS
Date Sat, 25 Jun 2011 16:10:30 GMT
On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Rob Weir <apache@robweir.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the list.  I looked around.  Some lists are very active.
> Some have not seen activity for a year or more.  Some seem to never
> have been active.  And some are just full of spam :-(
>
> I can see three ways to decide what to do (but maybe someone has other
> ideas?):
>
> 1) Recreate the structure of the OOo lists, making lists for all
> language groups, whether or not they are active.
>
> 2) Define activity criteria for what we will create, such as number of
> posts in last 12 months.  Create lists of whatever was active (by an
> agreed on definition).
>
> 3) Create lists only when there is a sufficient number of project
> members on the Apache list asking for new list.
>
> I think I like approach #3 better.  There are downsides to having more
> lists than we need. It fragments the discussion.  If we have 93
> language projects with each one having dev/marketing/user, etc.,
> lists, then we have 500 or so mailing lists, most of which see little
> or no traffic.  Do we really want to recreate that at Apache?
>
> Right now we have just a single discussion pubic list, ooo-dev.  I can
> easily imagine, that once we have some code checked in and start
> actively working on making our first release, that the traffic in that
> one list will be larger enough that we'll want to split into
> specialized functional lists, maybe:
>
> ooo-general == general project discussion that crosses over functional
> areas of project.  Everything that doesn't fit elsewhere goes here.
>
> ooo-user == user discussion threads
>
> ooo-dev == programming, including QA, UI design, accessibility, etc.
>
> ooo-doc == help and documentation
>
> ooo-translate == translation
>
> I don't think we're there yet, but I can certainly see that happening
> in the next few weeks/months.
>
> It is also possible that when we get very active, that the
> conversation level on ooo-translate becomes so high that we need to
> split some language discussions into their own list:
>
> ooo-translate-jp, ooo-translate-es, ooo-translate-pt, etc.
>
> I think we might want that to be driven by actual observed demand.  We
> can always create new lists when they are actually needed.
>
> But I think for now we want to keep the discussion together in larger
> groups.  For example, before we think of having a detailed group on
> Japanese translation, we should probably have higher level discussions
> in common, like:
>
> 1) Do we want Apache to host a Pootle server?  If so, we need to put
> together that request and make it happen.
>
> 2) Did the Oracle SGA include all of the language translation sources?
>  If not, we need to identify what is missing.
>
> Another thing to consider is this.  We've all heard the complaints
> about Sun/Oracle and how they managed the OOo project.  Maybe the core
> development project was not as open as it could have been to outside
> contributions.  Maybe the project leadership was centralized with
> their employees.  Maybe the power was not shared broadly.  These are
> all valid criticisms of *that* project.  The natural tendency of this
> was to create satellite power centers in the language projects,
> because that was the primary place where you were permitted a sphere
> of influence and control.
>
> I don't think the new Apache project needs to be, or should be, the
> same way.  There is no central corporate control.  Volunteers from all
> former OOo language projects are welcome, and are even encouraged, to
> participate directly in all functions of the project.  I'd like OOo to
> be a strong *global* open source project.
>
> I guess I'm saying this:  Let's not automatically create the same
> project structures as OOo had.  Those were partially created to work
> within a corporate-led open source project that distributed power in a
> very different way.  Some of the hierarchical structures of that
> project were made to deal with that power arrangement and the friction
> is produced.  Apache is different.
>
> Of course, language differences and the need to encourage
> participation by all is critical as well.  We may all speak C++ very
> well, but not all speak English well.  But I wonder if things like
> Google translate are now good enough that we could manage, with a
> little patience and understanding, to have multilingual conversations
> on a single list, at least until the traffic is so high that we need
> to split the lists?
>

Wow I am getting a very bleak view of all this, maybe I have just watched
too many world wide II movies recently. But this seems a lot like the
hanging of the Japanese military generals after the war. Or to quote one of
the classics:

"Do they speak English in What?" -- Pulp fiction

I don't think we should hold a gun to people's head to join a ML that they
might not be interested on the first place. Even if it's just to request a
new one.

So I am gonna partially play devils advocate and partially push some things
I have considered a good choice here.

play 1: "Another thing to consider is this.  We've all heard the complaints
about Sun/Oracle and how they managed the OOo project.  Maybe the core
development project was not as open as it could have been to outside
contributions.  Maybe the project leadership was centralized with
their employees.  Maybe the power was not shared broadly.  These are
all valid criticisms of *that* project.  The natural tendency of this
was to create satellite power centers in the language projects,
because that was the primary place where you were permitted a sphere
 of influence and control."

The funny things about complains is that the minute you stop listening to
them, is the minute you start listening to the opposite ones. So I'm foward
on the idea that fragmentation of communication is bad. At the same time,
ignoring the size and the diverse of the project is also bad.

play 2: "I guess I'm saying this:  Let's not automatically create the same
project structures as OOo had.  Those were partially created to work
within a corporate-led open source project that distributed power in a
 very different way."  ---

Aren't you using your corporate power exactly to do this in an opposite way?
The structure of OOo had issues, but changing for changing sake also seems a
bit of an overkill. Like I said, we needed a change of the way we did
things, but flipping it completely oppoiste is not an answer. I acknowledge
thtat positons in OOo were too bureacratic. But at the same time, it gave me
a good framwork to se who to address if there was a need to do anything. And
believe me, throwing a question on a general ML was not a good way to
identify people responsible in certain part of the site, code, etc.

As a general reference, when Google got usenet, he got it all, along with
Viagra commercials, and questionable material. I think we should first focus
on the migration in its entirety.

The idea of let's start from scratch and grow organically does sound cute,
but I think it will do more damage than good in the close future.


>
> -Rob
>
> On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Kazunari Hirano <khirano@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Rob,
> >
> > Please take a look at the Native Language Confederation Projects of
> > OpenOffice.org page.
> > http://projects.openoffice.org/native-lang.html
> >
> > Every language project has mailing lists.
> > You can check which list is active or not.
> >
> > 1 - Afar - http://openoffice.org/projects/aa/lists
> > 2 - Albanian - http://openoffice.org/projects/sq/lists
> > 3 - Afrikaans - http://openoffice.org/projects/af/lists
> > 4 - Amharic - http://openoffice.org/projects/am/lists
> > 5 - Arabic - http://openoffice.org/projects/ar/lists
> > 6 - Armenian - http://openoffice.org/projects/hy/lists
> > 7 - Asturian - http://openoffice.org/projects/ast/lists
> > 8 - Azeri - http://openoffice.org/projects/az/lists
> > 9 - Balochi - http://openoffice.org/projects/bal/lists
> > 10 - Basque - http://openoffice.org/projects/eu/lists
> > 11 - Bengali - http://openoffice.org/projects/bn/lists
> > 12 - Bosnian - http://openoffice.org/projects/bs/lists
> > 13 - Breton - http://openoffice.org/projects/bre/lists
> > 14 - Bulgarian - http://openoffice.org/projects/bg/lists
> > 15 - Burmese - http://openoffice.org/projects/my/lists
> > 16 - Catalan - http://openoffice.org/projects/ca/lists
> > 17 - ChiNyanja - http://openoffice.org/projects/ny/lists
> > 18 - Chinese - http://openoffice.org/projects/zh/lists
> > 19 - Czech - http://openoffice.org/projects/cs/lists
> > 20 - Croatian - http://openoffice.org/projects/hr/lists
> > 21 - Danish - http://openoffice.org/projects/da/lists
> > 22 - Dutch - http://openoffice.org/projects/nl/lists
> > 23 - Dzongkha - http://openoffice.org/projects/dz/lists
> > 24 - Esperanto - http://openoffice.org/projects/eo/lists
> > 25 - Estonian - http://openoffice.org/projects/et/lists
> > 26 - Finnish - http://openoffice.org/projects/fi/lists
> > 27 - French - http://openoffice.org/projects/fr/lists
> > 28 - Friulian - http://openoffice.org/projects/fur/lists
> > 29 - Galician - http://openoffice.org/projects/gl/lists
> > 30 - Gaelic Irish - http://openoffice.org/projects/ga/lists
> > 31 - Gaelic Scottish - http://openoffice.org/projects/gd/lists
> > 32 - Georgian - http://openoffice.org/projects/ka/lists
> > 33 - German - http://openoffice.org/projects/de/lists
> > 34 - Greek - http://openoffice.org/projects/el/lists
> > 35 - Gujarati - http://openoffice.org/projects/gu/lists
> > 36 - Haitian Creole - http://openoffice.org/projects/ht/lists
> > 37 - Hebrew - http://openoffice.org/projects/he/lists
> > 38 - Hindi - http://openoffice.org/projects/hi/lists
> > 39 - Hungarian - http://openoffice.org/projects/hu/lists
> > 40 - Icelandic - http://openoffice.org/projects/is/lists
> > 41 - Indonesian - http://openoffice.org/projects/id/lists
> > 42 - Irish Gaelic - http://openoffice.org/projects/ga/lists
> > 43 - Italiano - http://openoffice.org/projects/it/lists
> > 44 - Japanese - http://openoffice.org/projects/ja/lists
> > 45 - Khmer - http://openoffice.org/projects/km/lists
> > 46 - Korean - http://openoffice.org/projects/ko/lists
> > 47 - Kurdish - http://openoffice.org/projects/ku/lists
> > 48 - Lao - http://openoffice.org/projects/lo/lists
> > 49 - Latvian - http://openoffice.org/projects/lv/lists
> > 50 - Lithuanian - http://openoffice.org/projects/lt/lists
> > 51 - Macedonian - http://openoffice.org/projects/mk/lists
> > 52 - Malayalam - http://openoffice.org/projects/ml/lists
> > 53 - Marathi - http://openoffice.org/projects/mr/lists
> > 54 - Malagasy - http://openoffice.org/projects/mg/lists
> > 55 - Malaysian - http://openoffice.org/projects/ms/lists
> > 56 - Miskito - http://openoffice.org/projects/miq/lists
> > 57 - Mongolian - http://openoffice.org/projects/mn/lists
> > 58 - Nepali - http://openoffice.org/projects/ne/lists
> > 59 - Norwegian - http://openoffice.org/projects/no/lists
> > 60 - Oromoo - http://openoffice.org/projects/om/lists
> > 61 - Papmiento - http://openoffice.org/projects/pa/lists
> > 62 - Pashto - http://openoffice.org/projects/ps/lists
> > 63 - Persian - http://openoffice.org/projects/fa/lists
> > 64 - Polish - http://openoffice.org/projects/pl/lists
> > 65 - Portuguese - http://openoffice.org/projects/pt/lists
> > 66 - Portuguese of Brasil - http://openoffice.org/projects/br-pt/lists
> > 67 - Punjabi - http://openoffice.org/projects/pa/lists
> > 68 - Romanian - http://openoffice.org/projects/ro/lists
> > 69 - Russian - http://openoffice.org/projects/ru/lists
> > 70 - Sängö - http://openoffice.org/projects/sg/lists
> > 71 - Serbian - http://openoffice.org/projects/sr/lists
> > 72 - Shuswa - http://openoffice.org/projects/shs/lists
> > 73 - Sidama - http://openoffice.org/projects/dm/lists
> > 74 - Sinhala - http://openoffice.org/projects/si/lists
> > 75 - Slovenian - http://openoffice.org/projects/sl/lists
> > 76 - Slovakian - http://openoffice.org/projects/sk/lists
> > 77 - Somali - http://openoffice.org/projects/so/lists
> > 78 - Spanish - http://openoffice.org/projects/es/lists
> > 79 - Swedish - http://openoffice.org/projects/sv/lists
> > 80 - Tajik - http://openoffice.org/projects/tg/lists
> > 81 - Tamil - http://openoffice.org/projects/ta/lists
> > 82 - Tatar - http://openoffice.org/projects/tt-crh/lists
> > 83 - Telugu - http://openoffice.org/projects/te/lists
> > 84 - Tetum - http://openoffice.org/projects/tet/lists
> > 85 - Thai - http://openoffice.org/projects/th/lists
> > 86 - Tibetan - http://openoffice.org/projects/bo/lists
> > 87 - Tigrinya - http://openoffice.org/projects//lists
> > 88 - Turkish - http://openoffice.org/projects/tr/lists
> > 89 - Ukrainian - http://openoffice.org/projects/uk/lists
> > 90 - Urdu - http://openoffice.org/projects/urd/lists
> > 91 - Uzbek - http://openoffice.org/projects/uz/lists
> > 92 - Vietnamese - http://openoffice.org/projects/vi/lists
> > 93 - Welsh - http://openoffice.org/projects/cy/lists
> >
> > Thanks,
> > khirano
> >
>



-- 
*Alexandro Colorado*
*OpenOffice.org* Español
http://es.openoffice.org

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