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From Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com>
Subject Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Date Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:35:15 GMT
Some of the choice will certainly revolve around how you intend
to work as a group.  Some projects (eg thrift) do all their dev
work in the issue tracker- the dev mailing list is never really
utilized for discussions, it's just a track record of the activity
in the issue tracker.  Jira lends itself to this sort of organization
with its ability to create project roadmaps and such.

Other projects like httpd don't make a lot of use of the issue
tracker, they are organized around activity in various STATUS
files in their svn tree.  The httpd issue tracker (bugzilla) is
just there for users to submit bug reports.



----- Original Message ----
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 1:27:55 PM
> Subject: RE: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
> 
> Watching the LibreOffice lists as I do, I notice that sometimes a developer 
>will  pick up an user-list item and create a bug report about it.
> 
> In other  cases, folks on the user list are asked to submit a bug.  I am not 
>sure  what happens.  
>
> 
> And the rest of it appears to simply remain  user-list chatter.
> 
> I've submitted some bugs on the LibreOffice bug  tracker.  I hate it, and had 
>several misfires before I got it right.   It is very easy to fall out of the 
>LibreOffice portion of the tracker and get a  search result that is the whole 
>universe of projects on the same system.  
>
> 
> Also, when bugs are talked about on the developer list, they are  identified by 
>their bug numbers.  I never know which ones they are talking  about, even ones 
>I've submitted that they are working on.  I can arrange to  get CC: copies of 
>actions on my own bug reports and I do that to see if they are  even assigned to 
>anyone, there are comments, etc.
> 
> And of course, the way  users (including myself) report bugs, about feature 
>behaviors, is way different  than the way developers report bugs, which are 
>often about fine details in the  implementation.  It can be tricky avoiding 
>misunderstandings.
> 
> It is  very difficult to tell if one is submitting a duplicate, so when I can't 
>tell, I  submit anyhow.  Usually a dev will close it as a duplicate and link to 
>the  one already on file, and I can then follow that if I feel the urge.  The  
>opportunity cost is pretty high though - I put a fair amount of effort providing  
>bug reports on reproducible defects.
> 
> Having said how painful it is, it is  far better than trying to submit a bug 
>report on a commercial product where one  has no idea how many times a bug has 
>already been reported and finding out how  to report a bug is near-impossible 
>with some products.  The impedance  mismatch is so high I rarely go to the 
>trouble unless I know someone at the  company that I can report my experience to 
>directly.  Working around the  system is not beneficial to users or the 
>producers, of course.
> 
>  -  Dennis
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:asf@shanecurcuru.org] 
> Sent: Thursday,  June 30, 2011 09:57
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject:  Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
> 
> Here's a meta-question for those  who've previously worked on OOo: who 
> are the primary users of the  bugtracking system?
> 
> Most other Apache projects have sysadmins or  developers as the primary 
> customers, hence the majority of people both  seeking help on a product, 
> and the majority of people actually coming to  file a bug report (or 
> track one) have some technical experience.
> 
> In  OOo, are the bugtrackers aimed at developers, end users, or a mix of 
> both?  And for the end users, do they mostly just submit reports to the 
> bugtracker, or do they actively use the other features in the  bugtracker?
> 
> Thinking through how end users get support might help,  because if 1) 
> some end users use the lists, and don't really use the  bugtracker, 
> that's important to know, and 2) because if most end users  really only 
> ever submit bugs (but not search/track them, other than to get  notified 
> of their own bug), that is useful to know.
> 
> ----
> 
> In  terms of ASF infrastructure, most other projects have/or/are 
> migrating away  from Bugzilla (to simplistic and hard to get good 
> reports) over to JIRA  (perhaps slow and complicated, but you can usually 
> get what you want out of  it).  But either is a supported tool at Apache.
> 
> Note that if a  project wants a custom JIRA or Bugzilla install, with 
> extra modules or  something, that's possible to do - especially if the 
> project has some  reliable volunteers that will assist in both deploying 
> and supporting the  customizations.
> 
> - Shane
> 
> On 6/30/2011 11:53 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> > I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a  resolution.
> >
> > I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of  familiarity and ease
> > of migration.
> >
> > I'm also hearing some  say that JIRA is superior.
> >
> > I'm not really persuaded by either  argument.  I wonder if we could
> > briefly drill down into this a bit  more.
> >
> > 1) I read that the  OOo bugzilla has been  customized.  Can anyone
> > explain the nature of the  customizations?
> >
> > 2) In what sense if JIRA better?  IMHO all  defect tracking systems
> > suck.  But I'm open to the possibility that  some suck less.
> >
> > 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to  attempt a sandboxed trial
> > migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let  skeptics poke at it for a
> > while, to see if, for example, IDs are  preserved, etc.?  Would that be
> > much work?  The easiest way to  convince people that JIRA is possible
> > and reasonable might be to  actually do it.
> >
> > 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla?  If  it is a supported option at
> > Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious  choice?  I think we'd need to
> > make a good case for why an  alternative would be better.  What are,
> > say, the top 3 things that  JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
> >  On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher<dave2wave@comcast.net>   
>wrote:
> >>
> >> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier  wrote:
> >>>> Hi *,
> >>>>
> >>>> (to  moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender,  not
> >>>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please  add the sender
> >>>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both  dev and notifications
> >>>>  please)
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM,  Marcus Lange<marcus.mail@wtnet.de>
    
>wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would prefer Bugzilla,  too. We have already migrated recently
to this, 
>so
> >>>>>  transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because
 
of
> >>>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new  instance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Not because of project size,  but also for the sake of preserving the
> >>>> issue-numbers that  are spread all over the place, last but not least
> >>>> in the  code itself.
> >>>>
> >>>> So whatever you choose,  make sure that there is a way to get form
> >>>> #i1234# to the  actual bug that corresponds to the id.
> >>>
> >>> Yes,  keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we

>use would be  a second order priority for me.
> >>
> >> There seems to be  consensus.
> >>
> >> (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla  ids.
> >>
> >> (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over  JIRA.
> >>
> >> I think that we need to ask the infrastructure  team what they think about 
>the situation.
> >>
> >>  Regards,
> >> Dave
> 
> 

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