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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <dennis.hamil...@acm.org>
Subject RE: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?
Date Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:27:55 GMT
Watching the LibreOffice lists as I do, I notice that sometimes a developer will pick up an
user-list item and create a bug report about it.

In other cases, folks on the user list are asked to submit a bug.  I am not sure what happens.
 

And the rest of it appears to simply remain user-list chatter.

I've submitted some bugs on the LibreOffice bug tracker.  I hate it, and had several misfires
before I got it right.  It is very easy to fall out of the LibreOffice portion of the tracker
and get a search result that is the whole universe of projects on the same system.  

Also, when bugs are talked about on the developer list, they are identified by their bug numbers.
 I never know which ones they are talking about, even ones I've submitted that they are working
on.  I can arrange to get CC: copies of actions on my own bug reports and I do that to see
if they are even assigned to anyone, there are comments, etc.

And of course, the way users (including myself) report bugs, about feature behaviors, is way
different than the way developers report bugs, which are often about fine details in the implementation.
 It can be tricky avoiding misunderstandings.

It is very difficult to tell if one is submitting a duplicate, so when I can't tell, I submit
anyhow.  Usually a dev will close it as a duplicate and link to the one already on file, and
I can then follow that if I feel the urge.  The opportunity cost is pretty high though - I
put a fair amount of effort providing bug reports on reproducible defects.

Having said how painful it is, it is far better than trying to submit a bug report on a commercial
product where one has no idea how many times a bug has already been reported and finding out
how to report a bug is near-impossible with some products.  The impedance mismatch is so high
I rarely go to the trouble unless I know someone at the company that I can report my experience
to directly.  Working around the system is not beneficial to users or the producers, of course.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:asf@shanecurcuru.org] 
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 09:57
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Speaking of JIRA, Where's Ours?

Here's a meta-question for those who've previously worked on OOo: who 
are the primary users of the bugtracking system?

Most other Apache projects have sysadmins or developers as the primary 
customers, hence the majority of people both seeking help on a product, 
and the majority of people actually coming to file a bug report (or 
track one) have some technical experience.

In OOo, are the bugtrackers aimed at developers, end users, or a mix of 
both?  And for the end users, do they mostly just submit reports to the 
bugtracker, or do they actively use the other features in the bugtracker?

Thinking through how end users get support might help, because if 1) 
some end users use the lists, and don't really use the bugtracker, 
that's important to know, and 2) because if most end users really only 
ever submit bugs (but not search/track them, other than to get notified 
of their own bug), that is useful to know.

----

In terms of ASF infrastructure, most other projects have/or/are 
migrating away from Bugzilla (to simplistic and hard to get good 
reports) over to JIRA (perhaps slow and complicated, but you can usually 
get what you want out of it).  But either is a supported tool at Apache.

Note that if a project wants a custom JIRA or Bugzilla install, with 
extra modules or something, that's possible to do - especially if the 
project has some reliable volunteers that will assist in both deploying 
and supporting the customizations.

- Shane

On 6/30/2011 11:53 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> I'd like to reopen this question,since I haven't seen a resolution.
>
> I'm hearing some proposing Bugzilla, because of familiarity and ease
> of migration.
>
> I'm also hearing some say that JIRA is superior.
>
> I'm not really persuaded by either argument.  I wonder if we could
> briefly drill down into this a bit more.
>
> 1) I read that the  OOo bugzilla has been customized.  Can anyone
> explain the nature of the customizations?
>
> 2) In what sense if JIRA better?  IMHO all defect tracking systems
> suck.  But I'm open to the possibility that some suck less.
>
> 3) On migration, would it be reasonable to attempt a sandboxed trial
> migration of Bugzilla to JIRA, and let skeptics poke at it for a
> while, to see if, for example, IDs are preserved, etc.?  Would that be
> much work?  The easiest way to convince people that JIRA is possible
> and reasonable might be to actually do it.
>
> 4) What are the downsides of Bugzilla?  If it is a supported option at
> Apache, wouldn't that be the obvious choice?  I think we'd need to
> make a good case for why an alternative would be better.  What are,
> say, the top 3 things that JIRA would do better than Bugzilla?
>
> -Rob
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Dave Fisher<dave2wave@comcast.net>  wrote:
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
>>
>>> On 16.06.2011 16:45, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>>>> Hi *,
>>>>
>>>> (to moderators: I guess the list software used checks on Sender, not
>>>> on From - so if you need to review this message, please add the sender
>>>> address to a "allowed posters" lists for both dev and notifications
>>>> please)
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Marcus Lange<marcus.mail@wtnet.de>
   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would prefer Bugzilla, too. We have already migrated recently to this,
so
>>>>> transition would be much easier to bring it into Apache. And because
of
>>>>> OOo's project size I would also like to see a new instance.
>>>>
>>>> Not because of project size, but also for the sake of preserving the
>>>> issue-numbers that are spread all over the place, last but not least
>>>> in the code itself.
>>>>
>>>> So whatever you choose, make sure that there is a way to get form
>>>> #i1234# to the actual bug that corresponds to the id.
>>>
>>> Yes, keeping issue ids is the most important thing. Which bug tracker we use
would be a second order priority for me.
>>
>> There seems to be consensus.
>>
>> (1) We must somehow preserve the old bugzilla ids.
>>
>> (2) There is no clear preference on Bugzilla over JIRA.
>>
>> I think that we need to ask the infrastructure team what they think about the situation.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave


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