Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-commits-archive@minotaur.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-commits-archive@minotaur.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B996E7ADC for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:22:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 23283 invoked by uid 500); 1 Nov 2011 15:22:44 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-commits-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 23251 invoked by uid 500); 1 Nov 2011 15:22:44 -0000 Mailing-List: contact ooo-commits-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list ooo-commits@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 23244 invoked by uid 99); 1 Nov 2011 15:22:44 -0000 Received: from athena.apache.org (HELO athena.apache.org) (140.211.11.136) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 15:22:44 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2000.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received: from [140.211.11.4] (HELO eris.apache.org) (140.211.11.4) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 15:22:40 +0000 Received: from eris.apache.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eris.apache.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0E42388ADA; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:21:56 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: svn commit: r1196049 [9/13] - in /incubator/ooo/ooo-site/trunk/content: about/ about/__modules/ native-lang/ native-lang/conference/ native-lang/conference/img/ native-lang/conference/instructions/ native-lang/conference/instructions/img/ native-lang/c... Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 15:21:53 -0000 To: ooo-commits@incubator.apache.org From: wave@apache.org X-Mailer: svnmailer-1.0.8-patched Message-Id: <20111101152156.3F0E42388ADA@eris.apache.org> Added: incubator/ooo/ooo-site/trunk/content/native-lang/conference/logs/30-April-2005-Addon-Development.html URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/ooo/ooo-site/trunk/content/native-lang/conference/logs/30-April-2005-Addon-Development.html?rev=1196049&view=auto ============================================================================== --- incubator/ooo/ooo-site/trunk/content/native-lang/conference/logs/30-April-2005-Addon-Development.html (added) +++ incubator/ooo/ooo-site/trunk/content/native-lang/conference/logs/30-April-2005-Addon-Development.html Tue Nov 1 15:21:49 2011 @@ -0,0 +1,1460 @@ + + + + IRC Conference log + + + + +

IRC Conference log

+

+ Addon development: + another way to bring value to OpenOffice.org
+ by Laurent Godard
+ Download Slides +

+ + + + + + [lgodard] + == Slide 1 == +
+ [lgodard] + Hi all +
+ [lgodard] + First of all, I want to apologize for my english that may not be as fluent as yours +
+ [lgodard] + My speech is dedicated to addons production for OOo. Addons or extension is a great way to extend OOo capabilities without diving into source code. It is just an other way to add functionalities to OOo +
+ [lgodard] + I won't go into details but try to give an overall overview and let us discuss after that +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 2 == +
+ [lgodard] + I'll cover briefly these points from my own experience and try to propose some ideas on organizing addons production and delivery to end-users +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 3 == +
+ [lgodard] + Here some details about me. We are all over the world, everyone with different culture and way of life. I think it is important to hang relations to real life details. +
+ [DanielC] + nice picture +
+ [khirano] + sure +
+ [DanielC] + ;-) +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 4 == +
+ [lgodard] + :) +
+ [lgodard] + I've been involved in OOo development for now a while. I provided two tools requested by users: DicOOo and FontOOo (and some other perharps less known) +
+ [lgodard] + French spellchecker can not be delivered within OOo. And the deployement has to be multiplateform and easy to end-users. A very few of them did know which files to install and which ones to modify to setup OOo french spellhecker. I wrote DicOOo, a macro, that allow a transparent installation (initially asked by Sophie, our leader, thanks Sophie). It then came it was usefull for all other languages as OOo can not deliver all di +
+ [lgodard] + FontOOo came few months after to deal with free fonts management. Based on a remote list of free fonts, it proposes to install fonts at OOo level. The interesting point is that it allows to write documents that can be viewed the same on different location, provided we use free fonts. Bitstream fonts are already shipped with OOo. FontOOo allows to extend this kind of interoperability. +
+ [lgodard] + The principle of these two tools is rather simple. A cenralized list, pointing on ressources. The user selects what he wants and the tool retreives the files, unzips and intall them, modifying the configuratiobn file in the case of DicOOo. +
+ [lgodard] + DicOOo is in a standalone file as addon deployement is not so easy for end-users and it can contains various translations. Moreover it allowed the easiest way of update in the earliest stages. DicOOo is currently be rewritten +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 5 == +
+ [lgodard] + I learned a lot writing these tools. Obviously at a technical point of view with API, but also regarding methodology. I did bad things and promise i won't do them the next time. I also discovered what a community is and how it can be powerfull. +
+ [lgodard] + Some of the coming points are obvious but newcomers may be happy to know them before starting. +
+ [lgodard] + The main drawback of DicOOo is that it was not initially intended to be internationally delivered. All the source code is in my native language and this a very bad feature. Write your code in english (even bad one) +
+ [lgodard] + I discovered the power of a community when i first call for testers. I've been fed up with tons of e-mails and people were so enthusiastic with a lot of very good ideas to improve my macro. Don't hesitate, call for reviewers at early stage. I thanks all of them here +
+ [lgodard] + OOo is multiplatform. An OOo tool has to respect this. A lot is provided inside OOoBasic and the API to address this. Think to it while writing and call for testers on various platform. Generally, it is very easy to handle all platforms . For example OOoBasic provides GetGuiType, ConvertFromURL, ConvertToURL ... helper functions. For path and filename, always work with URL and go back to system notation only if needed +
+ [lgodard] + OOo is multilingual. This is an important point which should be always addressed. Even a rough mechanism, such as in DicOOo, can be sufficient for a first shoot. It can be a good idea to make the translations strings available as plain text so that even non technical people inside native-lang communities can help you. +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 6 == +
+ [lgodard] + With DicOOo, i experimented a self update feature. i think i won't keep it for the next version i am writing but it has been of great help at the early stages. For bug hunting but also for adding translations +
+ [lgodard] + When writing your GUI, think to end-users as if they discovered a wizard for the first time. It has to be as clear as possible. OOo Dialogs have the "step" property. It is magic and helps you writing different pages inside a same dialog. A Next button increasing this step property, and all the GUI elements having their step property at the same value (or 0) are automatically displayed +
+ [lgodard] + And remember, a good addon (or extension), has to address some points : of course respond to a need but also be end-user oriented and internally respect OOo philosophy. Not only three buttons thrown on a dialog. There are a lot of things behind as we've seen +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 7 == +
+ [lgodard] + So who can be an addon developer ? Everybody that have basic skills in a supported language or whiling to learn them. +
+ [lgodard] + Of course OOo needs core developers, and if you have the skills to help as one of them, Go ! Don't hesitate ! OOo needs you! +
+ [lgodard] + But, if you not have all the required knowledge you can develop some nice features thanks to UNO bridges. +
+ [lgodard] + More and more languages are supported internally as macros and with OOo 2.0, you will be able to use OOoBasic, Java, Python ... +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 8 == +
+ [lgodard] + An addon is a self-contained zip file, containing all what is needed : the source code, the addon.xcu and other stuff if needed. So the Addon packaging is rather simple. +
+ [lgodard] + As a lot of discussion occurred past weeks about addons and extensions deployment showing some misunderstanding. I encourage to read the Developer's Guide. Especially chapter 4.7.3 but all chapter 4 is great +
+ [lgodard] + Please note that installing an addon using OOo tools (unopkg, pkgchk) only deals with OOo configuration and do not alter the system at any level. Moreover, the hierarchy of xcu files (difference between share and user level) is strongly respected. +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 9 == +
+ [lgodard] + A lot af valuable work already exists but it faces a problem of audience and standardization for end-users. They are sometimes hard to find, end users do not know how to install them (should change with OOo2). Moreover, people wanting to start with writing addons do not sometimes how to start +
+ [lgodard] + So here are some ideas in order to built a system allowing to provide end-users a lot af valuable productions +
+ [lgodard] + I personally think that this task should be handled by a dedicated team. Promoting the system and organizing it. The scripting project seems to be a right place. +
+ [lgodard] + A lot preliminary structural work should be done in order to attract new addon developers. Developing tools to help starting, defining the context of addon submission. I think native-lang projects have a key role in this as contributor will usually start speaking of their addon in their community. +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 10 == +
+ [lgodard] + For developers, some documentation can be centralized at an entry point. The URL, the document has not to be translated at the beginning but a clear methodology, dealing with each supported languages should be written +
+ [lgodard] + Then helpers tools can be provided. +
+ [lgodard] + XRay is mandatory and should perhaps be included in OOo by default. It is a tool that allow to pass an OOo object (say a table) and explore its properties and methods. It is connected to the IDL reference so that it brings contextual help. It is available for OOoBasic and Python. It can be written for other languages as it uses OOo introspection utilities. +
+ [lgodard] + An addon creator also exists in french for OOoBasic macros, creating the xcu file and zipping the package. It could help newcomers for their first addon creation. The xcu file structure is very well explained in the developper's guide +
+ [lgodard] + These two tools have been developped by Bernard Marcelly. +
+ [lgodard] + A standard model of wizard/autopilot could be written, so that contributor start to focus on their addon functionality and have no deep knowledge to know before having some results. They will acquire knowledge step by step, but psychologically speaking it is better not to have barriers to cross before having results. +
+ [lgodard] + all of this could perhaps be packaged inside an "addon for developers" +
+ [lgodard] + for the ones who want to already get started with OOoBasic, you can visit Ian's very interesting site : http://ext.openoffice.org. You'll find valuable resources there as a good starting point to write OOoBasic macros +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 11 == +
+ [lgodard] + OOo is now heavy enough. It has to think to be 'modular'. Not all functionalities have perhaps to be included in core development. Only the one that are widely used. +
+ [lgodard] + This is now possible due to the ease provided by OOo 2.0. +
+ [lgodard] + An advanced GUI can be defined to show end-users the content of a repository and let them install the addon they need. A prototype has been proposed by Ian. It can be a starting point. The other side is the submission of the addon. OOo project has to be careful, using the right disclaimers and only accept, IMHO, free submissions. Closed source addon should be rejected ... +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 12 == +
+ [lgodard] + To finish, here are some ideas that could be good addons. The remote installer is the well known Goodies Bag requested for ages and proposed years ago by Sophie Gautier and kevin Hendricks. +
+ [lgodard] + In fact, all idea are welcomed. Calculation tools (such as FitOO), games (such as LeBoolier), conversion utilities (such as BatchConv) can be addons. I don't have time now for my productions but think to it. +
+ [lgodard] + == Next Slide : 13 == +
+ [lgodard] + As i really love Ben's seagull, here it is. And it is right, We need you +
+ [ericb2] + hi +
+ [lgodard] + Addon is really simple to produce. The hardest part is to find the information and deliver the result to end-users. Concerning API a lot of resources exists and mailing lists are open to ask questions. +
+ [sgtmcd] + I saw that poster in my army recruiting office. +
+ [lgodard] + I hope these few words opened some gates to let OOo be a torrent of value added functionalities through addons +
+ [sgtmcd] + well not exaclty. :-) +
+ [lgodard] + Welcome to all in OOo scripting world +
+ [lgodard] + Thanks to all +
+ [Sophie] + I would like to add that Laurent is one of the principal mentor of our dedicated "prog@fr" mailing list which has now about 200 mails/month [http://fr.openoffice.org/servlets/SummarizeList?listName=prog] +
+ [Sophie] + and thank's a lot Laurent :) +
+ [DanielC] + clap clap clap clap clap clap clap +
+ [khirano] + clap, clap, clap :) +
+ [lgodard] + thanks Sophie :) +
+ [lgodard] + thanks all +
+ [Xhydrogene] + Clip, clip, clip, Hourra ! +
+ [DanielC] + thank you Laurent! +
+ [AgnesB] + bravo Laurent :-) +
+ [willysr] + bravo bravo +
+ [southerncross] + congratulations, Laurent +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: I really like your ideas. +
+ [southerncross] + and sorry for the delay (a subway issue) +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: I really liked the one about having a pre-made wizard and an installer that makes the .zip package for you. +
+ [lgodard] + charles: no problem, all is logged :) +
+ [lgodard] + the installer already exists for OOoBasic +
+ [luco] + Clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap +
+ [lgodard] + i think it is in french only but could be translted +
+ [ericb2] + lgodard : I'm interested too +
+ [Sophie] + AgnesB : would you be willing to translate FR documentation about add-on to made it available for Doc project ? +
+ [DanielC] + Btw, the website Laurent mentioned is http://ext.openoffice.org.nz +
+ [lgodard] + oups, sorry for that +
+ [JZA] + lgodard: Hi, I came a lil bit late, but I wonder if there is a link sheet that can point out the main resource and documentation to develop OOo Extensions. I knew about the wiki recently and I think is a great idea, but I want to find the information so it can be localized. As you said there are some extensions but they are written in french. We (in the spanish community) have translated some french reosources but finding the location is what makes it hard. +
+ [sgtmcd] + Daniel and I started a oooauthors doc (way too long ago) attempting to document and help new developers. obviously both of us are not developers so it didn't get very far. I think what you have done here is wonderful. +
+ [AgnesB] + Sophie: glad if I can help +
+ [Sophie] + AgnesB : thanks a lot :) +
+ [southerncross] + this site is really well done actually. It's a pity we haven't heard about its author earlier +
+ [southerncross] + btw who is sgtmcd? +
+ [lgodard] + what is needed is yes a portal inside the OOo domain +
+ [lgodard] + only dealing with addons +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : +1 +
+ [lgodard] + not API, but only submitting and delivering, and of course starting +
+ [thing] + Thanks, lgodard. I was wondering whether you can comment on how easy/difficult it is to integrate proven addons to the core? E.g. DicOOo is called by opening a document instead of an integrated macro +
+ [lgodard] + and finding oinfo +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: Personally I find the developers guide overwhelming. I think we need something simpler, tutorial-style. That's why I'm glad to see ext.ooo.nz +
+ [southerncross] + lgodard: inside the OOo domain is a very important point +
+ [southerncross] + sgtmcd: nice to see we have an ookie on board, Shawn... +
+ [sgtmcd] + thank you. +
+ [JZA] + lgodard: for example, I have translate some developer resource like the PyUNO and UCB (universal controller broker) but actually seen what is relevant and what is too techie has not been easy to tell apart. +
+ [lgodard] + thing: this was a quick workaround +
+ [Sophie] + thing : this is a process that is new and that we (OOo community) have to improve +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: yes,i agree +
+ [AgnesB] + Sophie: could you give me the link about this file to sure it's the right one? +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: It would be /great/ to have an addons page. Maybe we should talk to Russel (form OOoMacros) and ask him to participate. Obviously he's interested. +
+ [lgodard] + sure +
+ [lgodard] + to nd with integration +
+ [lgodard] + nb/end +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: Though I think it should be setup different from OOoMacros. For example, it could have a "stable" section where all the add-ons are easy to install. +
+ [JZA] + lgodard: sorry wasn't here earlier but what is the difference between macros and add-ons from a programatically point of view. +
+ [AgnesB] + ericb2: Hi , glad to see you here, we met last week end (Mulhouse) +
+ [lgodard] + i think that the most of addons should remains external parts +
+ [Sophie] + example : last needed for cwsQA for community that is not documented. Laurent and EricB have to be the first occupant ;) +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: the macros at OOoMacros are sort of ad-hoc, each one is different. +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: if addon remains on a website they will be less used, imho, that if we provide a browser and an installer inside OOo. As DicOOo do in fact +
+ [Sophie] + JZA : add-on is a self content package (.xcu file) that can be deployed easily by users or admins through share or user directory. +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: I agree actually. I just felt that a website could be done sooner. +
+ [sgtmcd] + lgodard, are you speaking of similar to how firefox does 'extensions'? +
+ [JZA] + Sophie: but away from the packaging the code might be the same or not? +
+ [lgodard] + JZA: macros are inside OOo. It is code that is stored at OOo level. Addon is more packaged and contains also a file defining the menus and icons to add to the UI +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: The ideal is add-on installer installer inside OOo, like you said. But that won't happen for some time. +
+ [JZA] + lgodard: got it +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: why ? +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: Because of the UI freeze... +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: I thought that develoers didn't like changing UI after the stable release. +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: Not a problem, it could be an addon for the first releases. It should be +
+ [Sophie] + AgnesB : http://fr.openoffice.org/servlets/SummarizeList?listName=prog but be carefull that it should be upgrade to 2.0 about the GUI which is really simplified now, I'll tell you later ;) +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: cool! :-) +
+ [JZA] + Sophie: is there a place on the fr.openoffice.org where you allocate the developer resources and projects? +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: I'm happy to work with Agnes on that. Maybe I can help a little bit. +
+ [AgnesB] + Sophie: Thanks , I can already have a look on it +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: Are you working with Ian on the add-on installer? +
+ [Sophie] + JZA : we have a dedicated mailing list and a how-to section, a book written by Laurent and Bernard (the benefit of this book is reversed to the community, thanks to the authors :) +
+ [DanielC] + cool! bravo Laurent. +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: unfortunatelly, no. I remùember we exchanged some ideas but that's all +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: ok +
+ [Sophie] + JZA : we defirenciate core developments here : http://fr.openoffice.org/Laboratory/indexlabo.html +
+ [sgtmcd] + I have to run. lgodard, very impressive. thank you. I am clearing some of my schedule this week to read deaper. +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: yes it is a key point to attract contributors +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: thank you for comming! +
+ [Sophie] + and language developments here : http://fr.openoffice.org/Documentation/How-to/indexht.html +
+ [lgodard] + sgtmcd:ok :) +
+ [JZA] + Sophie: thanks +
+ [Sophie] + AgnesB, DanielC : ok, don't t hesitate if you have any question +
+ [lgodard] + can the scripting project be reactivated ? +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: I look forward to this. Take care. +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: who is in charge of scripting? +
+ [lgodard] + it may be the right place +
+ [AgnesB] + Sophie: Thanks a lot +
+ [lgodard] + scripting : dfoster +
+ [southerncross] + lgodard: is the scripting project supposed to be dead? It's been opened for the 2.0 +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: real life name? +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : yes, off course even if Dan is not there any more +
+ [luco] + Thanks Laurent and all !) I have to go +
+ [lgodard] + bye +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : Dan Foster +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: thanks. +
+ [Sophie] + souhterncross_of : this is a long time project but nobody has come to join it (I may be the only one ;) +
+ [DanielC] + what is the goal of the scripting project? +
+ [Sophie] + I think this is the real good place to put add-on for the community +
+ [southerncross] + Sophie: ah... I think I may have confounded with another project +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : collect add-on and scripts of any kind done by the community +
+ [DanielC] + Ok. +
+ [DanielC] + Perfect project then. +
+ [lgodard] + and provide entry points for new developers +
+ [DanielC] + like me! +
+ [southerncross] + it's really the best place +
+ [DanielC] + ;-) +
+ [lgodard] + yes +
+ [lgodard] + :) +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : yes, of course :) +
+ [khirano] + http://scripting.openoffice.org/ +
+ [lgodard] + thanks khirano :) +
+ [Sophie] + scripting is a site that has the same look and feel of other site, so even those who are NLC users know how to deal with it +
+ [khirano] + http://scripting.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=287 +
+ [Sophie] + they don't need to learn a new GUI in Englis and a new way to download, find documentation, login and so on :) +
+ [JZA] + lgodard: there is very small reference to the technical aspect of the scripting, is there are relevant links beside the one you mentioned +
+ [JZA] + like the Chapter 4 of the Dev Guide +
+ [lgodard] + JZA: the developpers guide chapter 4 +
+ [Sophie] + khirano : even though D.Foster has left, we can reactivate the site if we find that it fits our need. +
+ [southerncross] + DanielC: sorry this is a side question, how does it work between OOoAuthors and the Documentation project? +
+ [JZA] + is that the only one? +
+ [khirano] + lgodard: why don't you take the project over? +
+ [JZA] + ok +
+ [southerncross] + lgodard: SF would love it :p +
+ [southerncross] + JZA: it is at least the best place for this +
+ [DanielC] + southerncross: Our present agreement is that OOoAuthors is a development site, and Docs is the user site. We are doing most of the work anyways, but they get posted at Docs. +
+ [DanielC] + southerncross: http://documentation.openoffice.org/manuals/ +
+ [DanielC] + southerncross: scroll down. +
+ [lgodard] + khirano: it is a matter of team, looking at the preliminary job needed +
+ [Sophie] + JZA : has FR community has some knowledge here, we'll try to document it with the help of Agnes an Daniel, +
+ [DanielC] + :-) +
+ [khirano] + lgodard: yes, you are right :) +
+ [JZA] + ok +
+ [AgnesB] + :-) +
+ [lgodard] + khirano: so the game is to count ourseleves +
+ [southerncross] + DanielC: thanks +
+ [lgodard] + and see if we have a basic foundtion we can start with +
+ [khirano] + lgodard: I understand. +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: I count for 1/2 because I'm very busy this comming month. +
+ [lgodard] + scripting should not be dedidacated to only OOoBasic, we need all languages contributors +
+ [Sophie] + about the preliminary job needed, this is : document the code, QA of the package for multiplatform usage, translation... this is energy and resources :) +
+ [southerncross] + lgodard: it's important that an active developer (and a popular one) takes over the scripting project +
+ [southerncross] + lgodard: we need to get people motivated +
+ [JZA] + lgodard: there are issues within Python however (not sure abou other languages) there seem to be very strict on the way python interact with OOo, for example you can't import other modules to the uno python +
+ [JZA] + this limits the scripting potential of the binding +
+ [lgodard] + JZA: are you sure of that ? +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard is overwhelmed most of the time, so may be we can think of other people too (I need Laurent as a developer ;) +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: Maybe we should approach Ken Foskey? He seemed interested in the add-ons. +
+ [lgodard] + we can eb co-lead +
+ [DanielC] + yeah +
+ [JZA] + lgodard: is documented +
+ [JZA] + lgodard: and is a FAQ on the udk mailing list +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : won't you think Bernard would be interested in participating ? +
+ [JZA] + not sure if that has change recently with OOo 2 though +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: perharps asking him is the simpest +
+ [JZA] + I know projects like thelessonica?? that have jump to Java (originally written in python) because the lack of flexibility of the bridge +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: Definitely talk to Ian, and Russ Phillips (OOoMacros). +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: yes +
+ [lgodard] + when back from hollydays +
+ [DanielC] + I think we have a big enough group to at least get started. Even if all of us are busy. +
+ [DanielC] + yes +
+ [DanielC] + If everyone does a tiny bit, we can make progress. +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : imho, we need to define the process of reviewing the packages first +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: Ok. I don't know how this should work, so I'll follow your lead. +
+ [Sophie] + then, also the documentation to make it available for the NLC +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: it is an important point +
+ [Sophie] + then, how to organize the standby between the acceptance and the upload to the site +
+ [Sophie] + then organize the site in an easy understanding for all users on how-to dowload and install the packages +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: and an easy way to upload packages. +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie+_: less important if a GUI is provided inside OOo +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: yes +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : I was waiting for that one ;) +
+ [DanielC] + :-) +
+ [JZA] + DanielC: what is the function of the package manager in OOo 2.x? +
+ [Sophie] + ssh + cvs is not difficult, even me I can deal with it every weeks :) +
+ [JZA] + DanielC: was this propoused as the extension installer? +
+ [DanielC] + JZA: That would be in the Laaurent department. :-) +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: Jean has been trying to get it working for months, without success. +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: Ian never figured it out. +
+ [JZA] + lgodard: what is the function of the package manager in OOo 2.x? +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: Once CVS is setup it's easy. But the setting up is not easy. +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : send them to me, I'm a pedagogist ;) +
+ [lgodard] + what about licence policies ? +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: Jeah has already spent a lot of time with Louis, Scott and I think other people tring to get setup. +
+ [Sophie] + Does she had an how-to with screen shots of every steps ? +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: AFAIK the documentation was very very poor. +
+ [lgodard] + JZA: the package manager allows end-users to install addon inside OOo with a GUI, not dealing with command line +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : licence shem would be the same has we have on FR site : LGPL for code and PDL for docuementation +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie:Daniel: i don't think we should be too techie for submitting +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: I agree, keep it simple. +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: i completely disagree +
+ [lgodard] + for external addons +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: I would give choices like: BSD, LGPL and GPL. +
+ [DanielC] + stick to "standard" FOSS licenses. +
+ [DanielC] + and just a few, to reduce confusion. +
+ [DanielC] + You know, pick licenses that are well understood. +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: agree +
+ [DanielC] + :-) +
+ [Sophie] + sorry I've been disconnected +
+ [DanielC] + ok +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: Laurent and I were just saying that we should limit it to standard licenses (e.g. BSD, LGPL, GPL) because they are well understood. +
+ [DanielC] + to reduce confusion. +
+ [Sophie] + the only licences accepted on the OOo site are : LGPL, PDL and [CC for non editing work] +
+ [lgodard] + i see the scripting project only a bridge between addon developeprs and end-users +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: this is a problem +
+ [DanielC] + but we can put the files elsewhere and just HTML links. +
+ [Sophie] + if you want to add more licences that should be discuss by the CC and submited to him +
+ [DanielC] + I don't think that we should use the same policies for addons. +
+ [DanielC] + I think someone should start with more choice of licenses. Then, if the addon is popular and they want it included in OOo they sign the JCA. +
+ [Sophie] + Currently, I haven't seen any body refusing to licence his work under LGPL to put it on the OOo site, but +
+ [DanielC] + Because even LGPL is not enough for OOo. The requirement is JCA. +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: agree +
+ [Sophie] + if you think that this is real issue we can think about it +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: But LGPL is not enough for OOo. +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC: JCA if for the code going into the core product only +
+ [DanielC] + I thought that the only options were: JCA, PDL, CC +
+ [Sophie] + I'm holding add-on on the FR site and author didn't sign the JCA +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : no if there is no licence, then the JCA apply, if this is LGPL, then LGPL apply without JCA +
+ [DanielC] + ok +
+ [Sophie] + as this is external work of core OOo +
+ [DanielC] + ok, I see. +
+ [DanielC] + well, I feel better already :-) +
+ [Sophie] + may be only the one who are putting the work on the site need to sign JCA +
+ [DanielC] + I still want to think a bit more. I like the GPL. :-) +
+ [DanielC] + hhmm... +
+ [Sophie] + and in that case I can do it as I've signed both CA and JCA I can be responsible ;) +
+ [lgodard] + we should not restrict to LGPL in order to attract more developeprs +
+ [lgodard] + for adons +
+ [DanielC] + I have a thought... +
+ [DanielC] + anything that is BSD can be re-licensed as LGPL. +
+ [DanielC] + right? +
+ [DanielC] + So we can accept BSD work too. +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : ok, Daniel are you ok to sumbmit GPL for add-on at the next CC session ? +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: I can do that, sure. +
+ [JZA] + great talk, I am out +
+ [DanielC] + JZA: bye bye +
+ [lgodard] + jZA:bye +
+ [southerncross] + Laurent, thanks for your conference. Folks, have a nice week-end and see you on the lists! +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : this is a diplomatic affair ;) +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: i think we should restrict licenses as less as possible provided it's free +
+ [lgodard] + it is up to the en-user to decide to accept the addon or not +
+ [DanielC] + In any event, since BSD work can be turned into LGPL, then we should be able to accept BSD work. We can just say we are "relicensing". But since the user who downloads it still has permission (from the original author) to use it under the BSD... +
+ [TiTiX] + i think most of the end users do not care about licensing, they care about the features +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: I do see a point in keeping the number of licenses under control. Not every license. +
+ [TiTiX] + licence is a "develloper" problem no ? +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: the addon is under AgnesB certain licence. It stays under this licence. Otherwise, few addono will come +
+ [DanielC] + TiTiX: I think so. +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : this is not the first time I try to make GPL available, +
+ [lgodard] + AgnesB: sorry, don't understand what happens while typing +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: But on the other hand, having 200 different licenses can be confusing and cause other problems. +
+ [Sophie] + but what if this addon is so popular that we want to add-it to the core product ? +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: well, we can't anyways because of the JCA. +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: then ask politly the developper +
+ [TiTiX] + or go on shipping it separately as an add on =/ +
+ [DanielC] + So no matter which license the developer picks, we still have to ask the developer to sign the JCA. +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : JCA could be signed afterwards, but relicencing is more difficult +
+ [lgodard] + it is an external code, nothing to do with OOo at first glance. It could have stay on a private site +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: Why is relicensing difficult? The moment you sign the JCA, you allow Sun to pick any license they want. +
+ [TiTiX] + DanielC: even if you had your code GPL'ed ? +
+ [DanielC] + (that's part of the idea of the JCA, it gives Sun more options) +
+ [DanielC] + TiTiX: Yes. +
+ [DanielC] + TiTiX: The JCA means that Sun is a joint copyright holder, along with you. +
+ [DanielC] + TiTiX: and the copyright holder can pick any license they want. +
+ [TiTiX] + Yep but we can't include GPL code into L-GPL one right ? +
+ [DanielC] + Only the copyright holder can. +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : signing the JCA help also Sun to protect your work as it share also the copyright of it +
+ [lgodard] + this discussion is non-sense for me as we are speaking about addons that will remain 99% of the time as addons +
+ [DanielC] + yes +
+ [TiTiX] + DanielC: ok, i thought i wasn't possible +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: I was about to sya, there are good reasons for the JCA. +
+ [DanielC] + TiTiX: Think about it. If its your own work, you can do whatever you want with it, right? +
+ [Sophie] + yes believe my own experience with +
+ [TiTiX] + DanielC: right +
+ [DanielC] + TiTiX: The JCA makes Sun a co-owner, along with you. +
+ [Sophie] + FR community this is not only a way to profit of your work :) +
+ [Sophie] + but anyway the question is to make more licence available in cvs repository +
+ [DanielC] + But in any event, the JCA does have its uses, and this is one of them. +
+ [DanielC] + That you don't have to worry about re-licensing. +
+ [Sophie] + this is what we have to work on +
+ [lgodard] + the problem occurs because we plan to host the addons on the site, right ? +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : each member involved in the FR community have signed the JCA without objection, even consultants +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: So we don't have anything to worry about :-) +
+ [DanielC] + honestly, I think that if I make an add-on and it becomes popular, I would be more willing to sign the JCA too. +
+ [DanielC] + because I'd want to see it included in OOo. +
+ [Sophie] + so I really don't see currently any developer saying that JCA is wrong, but I see a lot of people arguing against without knowing exactly why +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: agree with you +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: Keep my comments in perspective. I don't completely oppose it. This is proven by the fact that I've already done a full CA with other projects. +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : I think you have the right thoughts :) +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC : and i think it won't happen that often +
+ [DanielC] + :-) +
+ [Sophie] + So now, we have to work on licencing of external work like add-ons +
+ [DanielC] + I think we're safe asking for the JCA afterwards. When the time comes, people will be much less likely to refuse. +
+ [lgodard] + I even think addons should remain addons. Event if packaged at OOo install +
+ [Sophie] + and make the CC and EST aware that other licences are needed +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: yes. +
+ [Sophie] + ESC sorry +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: Which licenses would you suggest? +
+ [Sophie] + people here, we need you for this acceptance :) +
+ [Sophie] + Let propose GPL first, then we will see +
+ [DanielC] + yes. I think the GPL is the only "issue" anyways. +
+ [Sophie] + a French proverb say if you want to ride long, be carefull of you horse ;) +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: i personnaly hink that opening to free licence is really good, but for the case of external addons, all free licences would be philosophically accepetable +
+ [DanielC] + It's the only one that is popular but is not compatible with the LGPL. +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: I like it. :-) +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: How about... any license that is GPL-compatible? +
+ [DanielC] + I am concerned about license proliferation. +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : I agree, but as I say, again, Paris hasn't be done in one day :) +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: better, but ... restricts contributions +
+ [DanielC] + I worry that license proliferation is one of the big problems facing FOSS right now. +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : I agree with you +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie:i'm totally aware of the problem but we ar speaking about attracting external developpers for third-party products. Only managing a list +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: some addons are closed source and won't be elligible to be listed but evry free addon should be +
+ [lgodard] + perharps only host the one we trust in and licence compatible +
+ [lgodard] + i spoke about three level +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: But what about the addons that can't be distributed with OOo without making it propietary? +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : imho, even if this is the goal, we are far from it now : we have a lot of things to do before : reviewing policy, methodology in acceptance, site maintainance, allowed licences, etc +
+ [Sophie] + you know that this is always a long run to put things together +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: not an issue or me. They remain addons +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: but you won't allow Linux distros to package them? +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: and the legality of this is not clear to me. +
+ [Sophie] + Currently we never had issue in putting add-on on the FR site, +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: don't understand teh problem of linux distros +
+ [Sophie] + so we could start at this first level and improve it +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: legality ? for me i see no problem +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: If an addon license is not compatible with the OOo license, then they can't include it. Simple as that. +
+ [lgodard] + we say, this addons exists, install it if ypou agree with its licence +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: addon, or extension, are external products +
+ [lgodard] + it is end-user choice o install it or not +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie, what do you think? +
+ [lgodard] + for me the problem is the same as dictionaries +
+ [lgodard] + some are GPL +
+ [lgodard] + but end-user can install them +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : they go in cvs repository so we say also we (OOo community) have a licence policy +
+ [TiTiX] + DanielC: you should'nt care too much on Linux distros, most off them doesn't provides for openoffice at all, and some of then even don't ship with OOo included +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: but the GPL /IS/ a compatible license. +
+ [Sophie] + if you don't agree with it then submit proposed changes to the CC +
+ [TiTiX] + (provide addons for OOo sorry) +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: in the CVS, only the compatibleone, named as trusted +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: You can distribute OOo under the GPL if you want. +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : cvs repository accept LGPL/SISSL, PDL and CC stuff only +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: sorry i don't understand. as end-user I can use a propriatory addon if i need it ? +
+ [Sophie] + but please currently this is not an issue, so let focus on what have to be done first +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: I don't know. +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: I'm aware of that +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: i can for sure +
+ [Sophie] + the site and add-on organisation and Daniel and me will care of the licence at next CC agenda +
+ [lgodard] + Sophie: ok, but i think we have to carrefully think on how we will we manage addons +
+ [DanielC] + yes +
+ [Sophie] + At the moment we need resources to make the project alive and viable with people insterested to help +
+ [lgodard] + +1 +
+ [khirano] + yes +
+ [khirano] + actually we ja community has some addon developers +
+ [lgodard] + i'll be off for one week but can list what is needed when back +
+ [Sophie] + lgodard : yes I'm aware about that and this is may be why this central repository is not already there +
+ [DanielC] + khirano: How do you handle add-ons ? +
+ [Sophie] + but you know who I'm :) +
+ [khirano] + We keep it in external server outside OpenOffice.org +
+ [lgodard] + we need yes addon developeprs, but before we need a team for this hypothetic project willing to help to setup all teh needed stuff +
+ [lgodard] + and wizards +
+ [DanielC] + khirano: Ok. And what licenses do you accept? +
+ [lgodard] + khirano: CDDL :-P +
+ [khirano] + The addon developer choose what they like. +
+ [DanielC] + khirano: Would the JA project be interested in helping out here? +
+ [lgodard] + khirano: is your server mirrored ? +
+ [khirano] + sure, but i was about to say that english is the problem. +
+ [DanielC] + ok +
+ [DanielC] + No Spanish speakers there? :-) +
+ [khirano] + lgodard: no, i think. +
+ [lgodard] + khirabno:japanes would be a problem for em. In fact it is a problem for me +
+ [lgodard] + khirano:server:ok +
+ [Sophie] + khirano : we have on our (yours and mine) lists a JA/FR translater, may be we may involve him :) +
+ [lgodard] + khirano:wheer is the list of addons hosted ? on ja.ooo page ? +
+ [khirano] + :) sounds good +
+ [khirano] + but i will try to translate your presentation, documentation and so on +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: Your talk certainly sparked a lot of discussion. :-) +
+ [lgodard] + DanielC: :) +
+ [khirano] + and i will encourage them to show their works, addons to you all. +
+ [Sophie] + DanielC : pkgchk is an underknow software of OOo that should have simplified a lot of migration if well documented +
+ [Sophie] + you can save most of the user configuration with it but nobody know how :( +
+ [DanielC] + Sophie: Ok, I'm looking forward to learning it. +
+ [lgodard] + all: I've now to go. You can continue the discussion, i'll read the logs +
+ [DanielC] + hhmm... +
+ [DanielC] + lgodard: Thank you for the talk! +
+ [DanielC] + I think it was a great success. +
+ [DanielC] + good job. +
+ [khirano] + lgodard: thanks! +
+ [lgodard] + you're welcome, it was a pleasure +
+ [lgodard] + thanks to all +
+ [AgnesB] + Thanks for all Laurent +
+ [Sophie] + I wish you very very good time in vactation Laurent, please rest :) +
+ [lgodard] + bye +
+ [Xhydrogene] + Thank you Laurent, Bye. +
+ [Sophie] + I have to go too, bye to all :) +
+ [DanielC] + bye bye +
+ [DanielC] + take care. +
+ [AgnesB] + bye bye Sophie, +
+ [Xhydrogene] + Bye Bye Sophie +
+ [khirano] + bye Sophie! +
+ [khirano] + minari: are you around? :) +
+ [minari] + hoge i finish work now... +
+ [minari] + >khirano +
+ [khirano] + minari: do you know who make addons in ja community? +
+ [minari] + addons ? Electoric add on ? or other? +
+ [khirano] + :) +
+ [minari] + Mr.sasaki make maybe one addon and Isimura@sun make many add-on +
+ [khirano] + and how about ER? is it addon? +
+ [TiTiX] + bye all +
+ [minari] + by titix +
+ [khirano] + bye TiTiX +
+ [DanielC] + bye +
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