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From build...@apache.org
Subject svn commit: r797852 [8/13] - in /websites/staging/ooo-site/trunk/content: about/ about/__modules/ native-lang/ native-lang/conference/ native-lang/conference/img/ native-lang/conference/instructions/ native-lang/conference/instructions/img/ native-lang...
Date Tue, 01 Nov 2011 15:22:53 GMT
Added: websites/staging/ooo-site/trunk/content/native-lang/conference/logs/20-Mar-2005-INGOT.html
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--- websites/staging/ooo-site/trunk/content/native-lang/conference/logs/20-Mar-2005-INGOT.html (added)
+++ websites/staging/ooo-site/trunk/content/native-lang/conference/logs/20-Mar-2005-INGOT.html Tue Nov  1 15:22:50 2011
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+<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
+<html>
+<head>
+<link href="/css/ooo.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
+
+
+  <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="style.css" />
+  <title>IRC Conference log</title>
+  <style type="text/css">
+    #tabs, #apphead, #leftcol, #projecttools,
+    .docs, #toc, .docs, .courtesylinks { display: none }
+  </style>
+
+
+</head>
+
+<body>
+  <div id="banner">
+    <div id="bannerleft"><a alt="Apache OpenOffice.org (incubating)" href="/">
+      <img id="ooo-logo alt="Apache OpenOffice.org (Incubating)" src="/images/ooo-logo.png"/></a></div>
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+   <div id="bannercenter"><br/>(incubating)&nbsp;|&nbsp;The Free and Open Productivity Suite</div>
+  </div>
+  <div id="clear"></div>
+  
+  <div id="content">
+  
+    
+    
+
+<h1>IRC Conference log</h1>
+<h2>
+   Learning Through Participation<br />
+   by Ian Lynch<br />
+   <a href="../slides/20-Mar-2005-INGOT.pdf">Download slides</a>
+</h2>
+
+<!--  ====================  -->
+<!--       LOG STARTS       -->
+<!--  ====================  -->
+
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Ok I'm assuming everyone is now on slide 1
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 1 - The Native American Proverb provides a link to the idea of community participation. Learning through participation is the theme for the INGOTs. Its also very attractive to educationalists and their professional values.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 2 - This is just an index of what is to follow.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 3 - INGOT is an acronym International Grades in Office Technology. It means something in English! - A gold bar full of value ;-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  In German Barren, Dutch BAAR, Spansh LINGOTE, French LINGOT, Portuese INGOT, Italian INGOT, so very similar in quite a few languages. I hope it doesn't have some bad meaning in any language I haven't found yet :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Note that INGOT certificates are independent of any particular software in terms of the skills required. They are only dependent on the OpenOffice.org community insofar as the community service aspects are concerned. But more of that later.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 4 - Bill Gates wants a Windows computer on every desk. I want everyone on the planet to have at least one INGOT certificate. If there was a dollar revenue from everyone on the planet we would have plenty of money for OOo development, probably all the development on generic FLOSS applications. Ambitious perhaps, but if you don't try you don't succeed!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Teaching children about FLOSS and how to take part in projects will guarantee the next generation of contributors. They can also be productive while they learn. This provides us with more human resource and motivates the children because their work can be recognised and is genuinely useful to others.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 5 - We do not have a lot of capital to invest so we need methods which do not take a lot of time initially but can grow easily across the world. While it would not be difficult to get Venture Capital, VCs would want to grow the business then sell it. We need to keep control to ensure that substantial parts of the revenue go into Open Source development and furthering the OpenOffice.org cause. Non-profits also cause problems and as a small business we get s
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  ome support from the British Chambers of Commerce to support export development.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 6 - The INGOT website is at www.theINGOTs.org. So are INGOTs just another IT couse and exam? Let's see.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 7 - The first INGOT I designed was the Bronze. It was easy to do and will be the certificate done by the most people. Its very simple but a lot of thought has gone into making it simple. We want to make it as easy as possible to take part. We want everyone to be able to do it.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 8 - The criteria are practical and lend themselves to be accredited by direct observation. Operating a computer is a practical activity. It might be convenient to have a written test about operating a computer but would it be valid? It would certainly bey bureaucratically expensive.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 9 - The criteria are there to be shared with the students. There is no secret about them. We want students and teachers to discuss them, to develop their language and communication skills, to learn through this interaction. This is education, not training.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 10 - The certificates build progressively on each other. We give rewards for early success to motivate the student. We tell the student what she needs to do to be successful and we provide practically useful outcomes from the learning to further motivate the student.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 11 - We make the learning process contribute directly to our project.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 12 - We accredit good practice that should already be there but often is not. Most children will have to build a simple web site as part of their school studies at some time, but here in the UK nothing is said about using appropriate tools or testing for compliance with standards. At this point we don't need to be too rigorous but we can flag up the principle. "You should not try and use MS Word for everything"
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 13 - I hope you can see that although simple, there is a lot of good education pedagogy in the INGOT certification. Ok, onto Gold 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 14 - A unique requirement of the Gold INGOT over all other certificates is the requirement to participate in an Open Source project.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 15 - At this level it probably won't be contributing code although there is no exclusion of this. There are plenty of things to do without the need for coding.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 16-18 - This series is an example of how a pupil contributed a useful teaching resource for maths in OOo Impress. Most schools in the UK use data projectors now so it makes sense to provide those things that used to be written in chalk as professional presentations and make these available for home use using free software and creative commons licensing. We can structure and organise these resources on the INGOT website using the work of the students and so
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  me funding from the certificate fees. We then will have a sustainable and ever growing bank of free educational resources that run on Open Source software.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 19 - We can povide support for students using mailing lists. This teaches them how to participate and takes pressure off hard-prerssed teachers. We also have a discussion forum on the web site.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 20 - By popular demand from primary schools we have just developed My First INGOT and the concept of Otto's club for 5-7 year olds.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 21 - To administer the certification we use the web site with a database to store the names of certificated students and each certificate has a unique number and entry against which it can be authenticated. INGOT assessors are all trained by an assessor trainer and I have personally trained all the assessor trainers travelling around the world to do it.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 22 - Ok, not everything is FREE as in beer. If you want an official certificate you have to pay a few dollars. We will soon have a system on the website so that assessors can buy certificate credits through paypal or a similar mechanism. They can then award certificates to suitably capable students. By keeping the costs low and getting large take up all over the world we hope to generate substantial sums to put back into development.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 23 - We only launched properly in September after some pilots. Considering the lack of resources and the fact that I have to do this development alongside other work, I'm very encouraged by the rate of progress. We already have Polish, translation and some Romanian with promises of Spanish. Obviously things have gone quicker in the UK because I know the system here better and I can exploit particular initiatives. A solid basis in the UK can help finance de
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  velopment further afield.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Ok, that#s it. I hope I got the pace OK for everyone - questions?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
+  Very good timing Ian.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Jzarecta</span>]
+  great
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#37a; font-weight:900'>lgodard</span>]
+  clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap  :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  APPLAUSE!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#854; font-weight:900'>simonbr</span>]
+  applause
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
+  APPLAUSE
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>jeanw</span>]
+  applause
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>brko</span>]
+  interesting....
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Bows modestly
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#a73; font-weight:900'>jrahemipour</span>]
+  thanks, ian!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
+  heh
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>Agerskov</span>]
+  Great presentation
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#37a; font-weight:900'>lgodard</span>]
+  Great work
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
+  Now we are in the Question and Answer period.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Jzarecta</span>]
+  good I got some:
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Jzarecta</span>]
+  Q: A major flaws of the computer courses is that they want to push the application as the solution ot all challenges. For example, using a spreadsheet to create a website, or code on a word processor instead of a text editor. 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Yes using the right tool for the job is an important INGOT theme
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  But we often have to teach teachers as they don't know any better
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  So we start gently
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Anyone else? :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#458; font-weight:900'>pseudo_daoist</span>]
+  Q: For the web page creation project  do they have to use an HTML editor? Can they use a regular text editor  (VI, EMACS, VDE)  with the appropriate HTML tags?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>Agerskov</span>]
+  When designing a website with 5 pages you tell that open standards are importent and then you tell them to test the site with 3 browsers - why not http://validator.w3.org ?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  Why is the service requirement on for OOo. Shouldn't it be for any free Office suite or any free program?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>Agerskov</span>]
+  Peschtra: I second that
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  They can use anything appropriate. Its probably simpler to say we don't accept MS Pubkisher because that is probably the most common bad practice we come across
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  I think MS Word is an equaly bad HTML editor.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  Why not make them use HTML in notepad or somthing?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  These are beginners starting from scratch. We want them to understand the principle that more than one web browser needs to be supported . We will scare off the teachers if we make it too complex too early
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#37a; font-weight:900'>lgodard</span>]
+  Agerskov: validator is great, but the aim of three different browsers is to know alternatives
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#854; font-weight:900'>simonbr</span>]
+  Does INGOT prescribe or suggest certain teaching materials?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  In practice we would accept a student working on say Mozilla, but since I need to support them and I am on OOo its easier to be specific
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>Agerskov</span>]
+  ianL: I would suggest two browsers and W3C's validator
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  Is that in reference to my question about which project to volunteer for?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Jzarecta</span>]
+  where did the spreadsheet gets introduced in the INGOT
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  No INGOTs is an accreditation frame work not a course. This is deliberate. If you try to force new courses into an over-crowded curriciculum you will fail
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  We keep things as open and as inclusive as possible to maximise our client group
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  We will be creating support materials but these will always be optional
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#a37; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  ianL: Can you tell us what you are going to do in Prague in detail, how long will you stay there to do it?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Spreadsheets come in Silver
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#a37; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  Can you come to Japan and do the same?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>brko</span>]
+  I think that this is a great idea.... I work for a company (steel industry), which has switched to OpenSource few years ago. And one of the big problems is, that when we employ a new person directly form school, the only thing the know is Microsoft and usually they are supprised, that something else exists. In case this certificate would be obtainable here in Slovakia I would definatelly put it on the requirement list for job application in our company.....
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  Is slide 20 the bronze requirements?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#854; font-weight:900'>simonbr</span>]
+  Are there guidelines about what sort of software and materials can be used to attain a certain certificate?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#37a; font-weight:900'>lgodard</span>]
+  Is there some system that alloows to say that is silver/gold at on place/time is the same at another ? Does it make sense ?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Jzarecta</span>]
+  I think also this is a great program for senior citizens, handicap resources 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  I will be in Prague from tomorrow evening to the following day. I am relying on Robert to direct the time. Main objective is to train Robert as an assessor trainer but this doesn't take long so we will also enjoy Prague :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>artietee</span>]
+  ianL: Is INGOTs comming to The Netherlands soon ?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>artietee</span>]
+  ianL: Are you?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Slide 20 is below bronze. Its for the little kids. You can download the handbook with all the specifications from www.theINGOTs.org. All CC license
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Jzarecta</span>]
+  ianL:  how many organizations got in the USA?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#548; font-weight:900'>technomajian</span>]
+  Have any other open source projects, such as Mozilla, indicated an interest in contributing to or participating with INGOT?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  ok
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  No guidelines on software apart form it should be appropriate eg not Publisher for web sites. We want to get to the die hard MS users so let them take part using MS Office. They will have to also install OOo for educational reasons ;-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  I haven't approached other projects - LPI are interested in cooperating with a Platinum INGOT. Its really time I'm short of!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  Who is "supposed" to pay the fee, the students or the school?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Yes we have got interest from Adult education. I was a bit surprised but some people see this as a far better framework than ECDL/ICDL. Its certainly less expensive and more flexible
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#a37; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  ianL: how did you get supports or subsidy from british government?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Fee payment will depend on the locality, clients etc. In the UK the schools pay. I have also arranged it so that schools can use grants that are normally targeted at proprietary software ;-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  I am encouraging people to set up small businesses to teach basic IT skills and charge for their time. The certificate fee is then negligible compared to the teacher's costs
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  I was just thinking, this could incorporated into the normal teaching of most schools' business classes, but the fee may be prohibitive.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  It would be nice though, because this is the kind of thing that might look good on a college app for someone entering into a computer/business field.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  INGOTs will come to the Netherlands or indeed any country when someone says they are interested in being trained. I will come at no expense to the host country and do the training. I was in Slovenia with Urska to-day. Czech Republic with Robert tomorrow
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>artietee</span>]
+  ianL: Thanks for your well prepared talk
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  INGOTs are designed to be incorporated with existing courses. We are flexible on prices. We can vary that to suit the local economy. I have just used prices that I know UK schools are prepared to pay. 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>artietee</span>]
+  everybody: bye
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  What is 2 pounds in Dollars roughly
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  $4
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Jzarecta</span>]
+  ianL: so if you train others in this country, then there is no need for you to go back to that country?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Jzarecta</span>]
+  unless the trainer can't for any reason.. I guess
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  How long would you for see it being before an INGOT certificate was recognized as an "accomplishment" by unviersities and such when applying to college?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  In prionciple I train assessor trainers who are then able to train other assessors. This is out quality control and we need it as I will later approach the UK exam authorities for official recognition
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#458; font-weight:900'>pseudo_daoist</span>]
+  Q: Are you still desiging the Platinium  level?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Haven't started with Platinum simply because of time but we have Birmingham University CS department involved and possibly LPI. Its less urgent because it will affect fewer people.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Jzarecta</span>]
+  ianL pseudo_daoist : any outline on what Platium will intend to achieve?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Jzarecta</span>]
+  ok
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Programming contribution
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#458; font-weight:900'>pseudo_daoist</span>]
+  thanks
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  I don't want people to get too hung up on costs. To start with everyone can do some certification free to try things out. We need an income though for development so we have to charge something.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>Agerskov</span>]
+  Could FLOSS participation also be error reporting?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Of course
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Anythng that is useful to a FLOSS project 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Help on the OOo Users list
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  That would be a good way to learn
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#a37; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  How can I introduce INGOT to Japanese people, translation of INGOT website into Japanese?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  I welcome anyone who can do translation. We can come to an arrangement where if someone does the translation, we will give free certification credits in return
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Start small, build incrementally from grass roots. This is the bazaar, not the cathedral
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  Did you mention alreayd where the funding is currently coming from? You are doing a lot of travel.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  My company and the UK government
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  cool
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  This is why we have to make it sustainable by having a business model to generate income. I have a lot of contacts and influence in UK education so its easy for me here but that also provides us with a platform for international development
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  I seriously believe we can earn enough income to provide all the resource needs of the OOo project and more. 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>Agerskov</span>]
+  Leaving
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  This makes us a lot less dependent on Sun which I thnk most people believe is desirable
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
+  Agerskov: thank you for comming
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  yes thanks everyone
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Jzarecta</span>]
+  good talk ianL 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>jeanw</span>]
+  Thank you, Ian. I'm sorry I was late. I'm looking forward to getting the IRC log so I can read what you said before I arrived.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  If anyone wants to be trained as an assessor just contact me by private E-mail
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Think you have heard most of it before! :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#458; font-weight:900'>pseudo_daoist</span>]
+  Doesn't one need to know how to do everythin that the Gold or Silver Level requires, before applying tobe an assesor?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>jeanw</span>]
+  True, but in bits and pieces, not all organised with slides -- I didn't see your presentation in San Diego.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#548; font-weight:900'>technomajian</span>]
+  Well, I need to run as well.  ianL, a wonderful talk!  I look forward to hearing more about INGOT.  Keep us informed, and again, thank you for your hard work!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
+  technomajian: Thank you for comming :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  You can become a Bronze or Silver Assessor trainer. Yes you would have to know whow to do the things but in general I think anyone capable of IRC would find Bronze easy
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  I think a big problem tha tthe program faces is the mindset that schools need to teach the students MS or else they won't be ready for life. I guess INGOTs incorporates that, but what plans do you have to soften people towards accepting FLOSS and OOo?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  That is part of the strategy. You can do Bronze on MS Office. No worries. But for Silver you need to burn an OOo CD and for Gold you need 25 hours community service. We take out the emotiveness of the technology politics. 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  What does that last sentence mean? emotiveness?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  INGOTs educate people about FLOSS and OOo. Let them then decide after they are educated
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Emotion taking over from rationality. We can't immediately kill emotion so lets not try. Lets do it gentler and from a starting point everyone can accept
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#458; font-weight:900'>pseudo_daoist</span>]
+  ing
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  ok
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#854; font-weight:900'>simonbr</span>]
+  Thanks Ian, bye
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  A key feature of the INGOTs is to lower the barrier to entry for even the most relucant. A lot of thought has gone into this aspect and it fits Christensen's disruptive technology theories
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  makes sense
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  Its why the criteria are kept as simple as possible but guiding the main ideas of freedom. These are difficult concepts for the uninitiated.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>Peschtra</span>]
+  Yeah, there were for me. :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  I think we too often try to take too big steps with people who are not ready to take them. Some people are but most aren't
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>jeanw</span>]
+  IanL: I agree on that!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
+  :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  INGOTs -----> OOo-------->Linux
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  And let's take some money of MS users to develop FLOSS :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>jeanw</span>]
+  Need to do things(and introduce ideas) in ways that have meaning for people when they are doing them.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
+  yeah!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>jeanw</span>]
+  Yes!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#a37; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  it is important to get as many people as possible touch an idea of FLOSS.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#a37; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  yeah!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  I like irony, I'm a Brit ;-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
+  :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  If you think education is expensive, try ignorance :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
+  heh
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>jeanw</span>]
+  indeed
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>ianL</span>]
+  khirano, I have always wanted to visit Japan so we need to work out a way of getting INGOTs in to Japan. I have had an interest in Japanese culture ever since studying Judo :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>DanielC</span>]
+  :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#a37; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  ianL: sure, let us think about it :)
+<br />
+
+  </div>
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+<head>
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+
+
+  <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="style.css" />
+  <title>IRC Conference log</title>
+  <style type="text/css">
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+   <div id="bannercenter"><br/>(incubating)&nbsp;|&nbsp;The Free and Open Productivity Suite</div>
+  </div>
+  <div id="clear"></div>
+  
+  <div id="content">
+  
+    
+    
+
+<h1>IRC Conference log</h1>
+<h2>
+   Life of one NL project<br />
+   Hristo Hristov<br />
+   <a href="../slides/26-June-2005-Life-of-one-NLP.pdf">Download slides</a>
+</h2>
+
+<!--  ====================  -->
+<!--       LOG STARTS       -->
+<!--  ====================  -->
+
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  let's start
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Well, I hope to enjoy the show :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  go on!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  == Slide 1 ==
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  First of all, I want to apologize for my English that may not be as good as yours
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  My speech is dedicated to the history of our project for localization of OpenOffice.org, which became  at one point a Native-Language Project
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  ==Next  Slide 2 ==
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  These are the topics which I will write about. They covers how it started, what difficulties we had in our work, some resolves which we made for most of them, our future plans and some conclusions which I made as a result of my work till today :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  == Next Slide 3 ==
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  If I'm fast tell me please
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  This is a brief info about me :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  I'm working as Java programmer, mostly making the GUI of back-ends.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  In my free time I'm working on our project (my wife is not very joyful about this sometimes). My work is very heterogeneous. I assist in localization, maintain the web pages of the project, before version 2.0 I made the builds but now Bulgarian is included in Pavel's build script, so I only update the GSI file.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  == Next Slide 4 ==
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Here is the core of our team. Also there are other members who tests the builds and they are not included here because they are not permanently occupied. We are small team but I hope to become bigger in the future.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The first one is Michail Balabanov who is our expert of translation and who is one of the authors of Translation of UI in Bulgarian specification. With a little proud I can tell that our project is the first one which started to use this specification.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>ericb2</span>]
+  hi :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The second one, Sergei Dimitrov, is our new member of the team. He helped a lot for translation of OOo 2.0. Also he is helping with translation of articles for our most familiar web portal for Linux.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Radostin Radnev, the third one, is living and working in German and helping us  with dictionaries (spell checking, hyphenation, thesaurus).
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The fourth is Plamen Nikolov, he helped in localization of OOo 1.1.x but now he is very busy to assist, so maybe he will leave us soon.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  == Next Slide 5 ==
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The beginning of my inclusion in OOo work was the internationalization of OpenOffice.org in Bulgarian. That was after OOo 1.0. In this version were decided to be removed languages without local from the list of default languages for the document in the Settings.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  That made using of our spell dictionary more complicated. So I wrote the local for Bulgarian and after a couple redactions and consulting with other people, it was ready. But because we missed the dead-line it wasn't included in the next version.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  It was includet in 1.1.3
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  So, that was the beginning. After that I decided to translate OOo in Bulgarian, so more people who doesn't know English to start use it.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  At the beginning I started to do it by myself, but after an advice from Radostin, I searched for some activities in that direction from other people. 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  I found that there was started procedure about localization but near the end of finishing with translation of the Glossary it has been stood still.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  After some messages from me to revive the work, I contacted with the leader of the localization and because he was very busy he proposed me to step back the leadership to me. After a little thinking that if we don't do the work by ourself, nobody will do ti, I agreed to lead the localization. Of course we used what have been translated from the Glossary in our work.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  I read the instruction in the l10n project and made the necessary patches for extracting and importing the strings and after some unsuccessful attempts and corrections I succeeded to extract the GSI file.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  At the same time, I posted on couple web sites invitations for translators.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Also Radostin Radnev  informed me that there has been created a specification for translation of GUI in Bulgarian from Michail Balabanov and Anton Zinoviev (thanks a lot people). I read it and I liked to have a rules for the localization. So, our project was the first one which started to use this specification in real.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  When we started localization there was no tools for converting the GSI file into po files. So, we had to relay on ourself. At first time I split the file in a little peaces by lines number to be more easy for translation and at second time I made a little Java program to split the GSI by modules. Michail Balabanov made a little program with simple database to help the process of translation.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  == Slide 6 ==
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  After the translation of the interface finished, using of the OpenOoffice.org start to grow. 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  We were happy when we released first official version with full localized UI which was OpenOffice.org 1.1.2
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  When that happened, of course we announced this on the most famous web site for Linux in Bulgaria, a lot of people start to use it.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Of course there were a lot of mistakes in the translation and they were fixed in the next versions 1.1.3 and 1.1.4
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  At this point we realized that we had to find a place where these people can ask their questions, a place where they can search for help, a place where they can report mistakes and bugs.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  I gathered the achievements which we had and they were: localized UI, dictionaries for spell,  hyphenation and thesaurus.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  So, I plucked up courage and sent proposal of Bulgarian Native-Language Project
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Of course at first it was refused with the motive that a NLP is not only localization but also support, marketing and etc in short words we have to make a community and then NPL.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  sorry :-) NPL = NLP
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Well, I didn't give up and continued the fight for our NPL. I explained that we had to have a some place where to build that community and trowing strength to build that community on other place and after that to move all things on OOo site is useless.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  So, leaders of NLC changed the rules of proposal for the NLP and set these two levels of NL projects  which we have now. I think that this is better for all NL projects because as it is now every new NL project can make their start here in the OpenOffice.org website.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  After this change the Bulgarian team was happy to have own NL Project created on 14.10.2004.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  == Slide 7 ==
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Difficulties. Oh, boy. Nobody loves them but they are there and we have to resolve them :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The first hindrance was that we needed a rules how to translate.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  That was very important to have because without rules the work didn't go.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The Glossary have been translated without rules and on one point a lot of arguments of how to be translated one or other term stopped the whole thing.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  So, for my luck when I get in my hands the leadership, there was already created the Specification for translation of GUI in Bulgarian, including some small dictionary of frequently used terms, so we didn't waste time to make such rules.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The second difficulties was that we needed a place to store the files for translation.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The first place was http://sourceforge.net/projects/lug-bg/
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  We join to that project on SourceForge which was for all kinds of translations. With this project we worked for all OOo 1.1.x versions.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Before starting localization of OOo 2.0 I decide to move the stuff on other place. SourceForge servers are outside Bulgaria and the Internet connections with servers outside the Bulgaria was very slow and this impeded the work.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The second place became http://sciforge.org/projects/ooo-bg/
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  For our luck SciForge was created a little earlier before starting localization of 2.0 version. The server is here in Bulgaria and the connection with it is faster. Also the communications with the owner of the server are more easy-going when I have some needs of something to be changed or to include new service.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The biggest problem which we have till today and we cannot find an easy resolve for it, are long strings. Sometimes a short string in English translated in Bulgarian becomes more longer. And because the GUI didn't use layouts, such string have been cut. Most of the times we do our best to figure out some shorter translation, but sometimes it cannot be done, so we use abbreviation. It is not very g
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  ood solution but there is no solution for know.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  know = now
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  I read in the summer coding activities that there is a plane for using of layouts and I hope this to be done soon for our good.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Other problem, which was resolved from a couple of months, was a place to gather and informing people for the great product OpenOffice.org.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  We have web pages in Bulgarian on the website of OOo so everybody which not familiar with foreign languages can read for the great product OOo.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  We have forums where they can ask their questions for help, we have mail lists as for localization work (and some day maybe developing :-)) as for discussions.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  A little problem about forums is that you have to be registered if you want to read them. I think that registration is needed only if somebody wants to write in a forum but not for reading. Anyway this can be discussed :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Other big problem is piracy.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  It is our enamy too, but this is very long theme for discuss and maybe in the future we can discuss it.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  == Slide 8 ==
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The big plans :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Well, I have a lot of plans for the future and I hope that they will come true step by step :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  First of all it is important to have someone to distribute CDs with OpenOffice.org
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  For now we have only one firm willing to do that, which is Confidential Information Technologies, but I supposes that after release of OOo 2.0 more firms will wish to include a CD in their productions.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  It is also important to introduce the new 2.0 version to the people.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Confidential Information Technologies has a plan to make an introduction of the new version after its release.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Lectures of how to use OpenOffice.org also will be very good thing to happened. But first we have to finish with translation of the Help of OOo.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Books is a good idea too. Here in Bulgaria still do not have books for the OOo in Bulgarian and people want such.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  With grow of popularity of the OOo it is important to give a support for firms and corporations.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Because we are not a great many people, for now I planned to gather information of IT firms which can give a support and to post that information of the website of our project. Thus every firm which needs support can find the information easier.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  == Slide 9 == 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  In my work with OOo I learned these:
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  - Never do all things alone :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  It is very hard to do everything alone. Better is to share the work with others.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  - Be patient and all will come on his time
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  A long time our local was not included in the source but with patient it happened.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  There was problems with creating the NLP, but this happened too.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  So, patient and endeavor are the keys.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  - Ask people to help you and they will
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  This is the hard part :-) You have to be very convincing :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  - Gain more people to join the team so more work to be done
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  When we have more volunteers helping the project more work will be done and we will have success.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  - Translations needs rules to be a good one
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  When there do not have rules for translation, the process can stopped because of a lot of controversies as it has been happened when I started my lead.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  - People needs a leader to remind them that there is work to be done :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  I figure that people have to be pushed sometimes :-) because in their daily round they forget that there are time limits.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  - Meetings with other translation teams which will help to have equal translations of terms in different programs (like KDE team, GNOME team and others)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  It is good the programs to use the same translation of equals terms. If each program use different translation of terms the users will be very confused when he use them.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  - Good tools to help translation process
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Good tools helps the work to be done easy and fast. Now when we have po files it is more easy for translation because we can use programs like KBabel, poEdit, GTranslator and others tools for translation which can collect translations in the databases for auto translation functions.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  == Slide 10 == 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  OK, that's all from me. You are free to ask :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  bravo!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  IcoBgr: Thanks!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Thanks :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  Thanks a lot IcoBrg, it was really interesting 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>Zero_Dogg</span>]
+  :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  it was very useful speech
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  IcoBgr: I am especially impressed by what you have learned
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  The Bulgarian NL project should be an example of how to create and open a NL project, build a community and make the product successful
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  Hristo stirred a small revolution amonf the NLC, but we didn't regret it at all :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  I agree, and it was really interesting to see the process, step after step, always keeping courage , even when difficult times came
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  I have a few other comments to make: Hristo and his team were patient and hard-working, and these are the two virtues that we're looking for NLC members
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  I hope, that, when dealing with companies, Hristo will prove to be not only efficient, and should I say, a good salesman, but also it is important not to fall dependant on one of these businesses
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  I'm sure you guys will do it fine though :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  I have a question: why are you concerned about piracy?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  My bigges dream is to convince our country administration to use OOo :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  yes I asked me that question too
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  IcoBgr: I'm sure we can talk about that on dev@native-lang...
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  thing: hello Soren!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Because here in Bulgaria the pirace is... how to say.. like life
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Moste of windows users do not care
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Because our salaries are small and few people can buy programs the prefere to download the from some warez site
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  okay, but how is OOo affected by that?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  It is because of MS Office
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>Zero_Dogg</span>]
+  instead of pirating MSOffice they can use OOo
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>Zero_Dogg</span>]
+  legally
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  If they can get MS Office without paing why should twy learn and use OOo
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  twy = they
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  I see
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Piracy is a big problem here. belive me :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>eskroni</span>]
+  And Microsoft isn't fighting against the piracy? 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  As for comercial software as for open one
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>Zero_Dogg</span>]
+  that is actually a very valid point imho, _alot_ of people pirate MS Office, even here.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Officialy yes :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  it's so hard to try to change people's mind
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#808; font-weight:900'>Zero_Dogg</span>]
+  Microsoft fights piracy, but I believe they would rather see someone use a pirated version of MS Office rather than using OOo
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  In France there was an interesting initiative from the FOSS-movements about piracy
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  But I read one speach of Billy where he said for chinees that it doesn't matter that they use piracy copies of MSO, one day he will find the way to get the money
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>ericb2</span>]
+  yes, same problem all around the world, and microsoft of course is happy of this behaviour
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  The government wanted to fight piracy a few months ago, and the FOSS organizations actively... backed Microsoft by requesting the accurate and exact display of prices for each of software and hardware
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  example: you buy a PC. What FOSS associations requested is that the full price of Windows would not appear in the overall price, but aside of it, so that people can see how expensive Windows is (and not the computer itself), and so that they start to install Linux
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>TonyP</span>]
+  There are circumstances where piracy is not an option, for example, the Brazilian governments IT literacy initiatives.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Yes they are a good example
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>TonyP</span>]
+  Could your govt afford hundreds of MS liceneces if it wants to do the same?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  TonyP to whom is that Q
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>TonyP</span>]
+  Not so much a Q as a comment, sorry
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>TonyP</span>]
+  But it does undeline why your work is so important
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Our govr paied 3 years licens for 30 000 licenses of Windows XP for the administration
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  That was 3 years ago
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  IcoBgr: do you know if your government is thinking about FOSS (migration, strategy, opportunity, etc.)?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  It was very big deal and of cource I think the commission too
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  For now, no. The corruption is very big here and commissions are more important for them :(
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  I'm not praud to talk such way for my govr but unfortunately this is the truth
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  IcoBgr: they will have to change if they want to enter the EU
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  I hope so :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  I aslo hope that the software patents will not be accepted in the EU
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  IcoBgr: may be you can start with local governments? city, town, village administrations?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  So do we :-/
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Oh, I forgot :) There is an activitie. It have a test project for instaling open source in the reginal centers
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  For a moment I forgot the organization which doing this. 
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  They installs for now translated 1.1.4
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  good news :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  good!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  yeah :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  It's an important starting point
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  There was some problems about that we translated the formulas in the Calc
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  People used to use English one
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  But I made a version with English names of formuls, so this not a problem anymore
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Anybody to know when will be release new 2.0 :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  NO :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  somewhen around september
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  September!!!!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  really?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>ericb2</span>]
+  IMHO, after some stopers ar fixed
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  it doesn't mean that I'll take bids on it...
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  but it is likely ;)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  exactly
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  although it could be earlier of course
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  yes, we know, we have to realease good and nice 2.0 :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  IcoBgr, we (Russian NLP) switched to English formulas in Calc, because you need to change your keyboard layout a lot of time if you write complicated formulas (cell addresses always use English notation, like A1, B2)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  the whole problem is that the release schedule is a little bit unclear so I tend to use a crystal ball for the sake of clarity...
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  anyway
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  I think we don't need 2.0 which made in hurry, stable product is better
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  Rail and IcoBgr: I think if people understand English one, it doesn't have to be translated into your languages.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Rail: Is it possible to be included an options in the settings like that for the decimle char
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Not everybody knows English here
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#5a0; font-weight:900'>southerncross</span>]
+  Folks, Hristo, it was very interesting and I would like once ago to thank you for raising the flag of OOo in Bulgaria in such a courageous fashion. My thanks also go to Agnes for keeping the log of this conf. I have to go now, so see you soon on the lists!
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  khirano, advanced users know English formulas, normal users use only sigma sign to get SUM() :-D
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  the quality of the product is the most important one, so it's better if we could wait a little more ;-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  Rail: I see :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  IcoBgr, there is no such setting, but it will be great to ha it
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  ha = have
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Is it possible to be included an options in the settings like that for the decimle char?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  IcoBgr, we can raise an issue for such settings in OOo ;)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  It will b good :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  it will be very useful
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  IcoBgr: you said that, if you translate English UI into Bulgarian, it would be longer wording, right?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  how longer, very long? :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  khirano: I didn't understand that :(
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Can you say it in other way :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  The UI is translated alrady and now we translating the Help
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  http://www.transwift.net/aynu/ooo-aynu-draw.png
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  can you see this?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  Aynu version :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  now you can see long translation for "insert" on the menu.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  one moment
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  I think there must be some params in officecfg for scaling place dedicated to translated string...
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  "data a=okewe wa oro mosma p a=omare" for "insert" :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  very long, isn't it? :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  khirano: You are talking about the long string?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  yes, so I thought you have a similar problem :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Yes, we have. I told this in the presentation
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  yes, so I am asking you, how long? very long like "data a=okewe wa oro mosma p a=omare" for "insert"?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Most times we have to think shorter translation but there are times where we use abbreviations
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Not so long :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  ok, thanks
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Menus are not a problem. The problem is in dialogs
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  IcoBgr: yes, right, have you started translating Online Help?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  What is online help? That in the OOo or other?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Do you mean the guid?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  Online Help in OpenOffice.org the product.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  yes, we are transalting it now.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  In the GSI file which I filed for comiting last month we have some translations
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  What tool are you using?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  Kbabel?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  mostly poEdit
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  ok, thanks:)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  because it have version for windows oo
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  oo=too
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  yeh, that's right.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  but for some files I have to use simple editor
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  because some english strings which are used on different places in Bulgarian we have to translate in different way. So I have one Id for more that one string and poEdit do not like this and crash
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  I know that somebody working ot this problem in oo2po tool
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  ot = on
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Ok, people. I'm glad to talk here but I have to leav you now because my baby needs me
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  we use web based translation tool with very useful feature - we can build "tagged"
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  builds
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  http://rail.iqchoice.com/ooo_tagged_ru.png
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  I installed m104bulgarian build by Pavel Janik on my machine:)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  here is tagged build with IDs on the end of the every string
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  http://www.transwift.net/pukiwikiooopukiwiki/?680m104s1s#content_1_1
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  looks good :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  Thanks a lot IcoBgr
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  and you serach web interface: http://rail.iqchoice.com/ooo_tagged_ru1.png
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Rail: is it open source?
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#088; font-weight:900'>TonyP</span>]
+  And thanks from me too! I'm off as well
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  IcoBgr: have a great time with your baby
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  AgnesB: thanks :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  IcoBgr, of course, it based on ootrans made by Hungarian team
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  I'll look on it
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  IcoBgr: :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  IcoBgr: Thanks for your presentation.
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  IcoBgr: I will tell my Aynu localization team what you have learned :)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  see you all
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#05a; font-weight:900'>khirano</span>]
+  bye now
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  bye bye khirano
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#50a; font-weight:900'>eskroni</span>]
+  Sorry, I have to leave now :)  I wish you all a good day/evening/night... wherever you are ;)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  IcoBgr, I think I found the setting for scaling: take a look here: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=39853
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  bye bye eskroni
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  open officecfg/registry/data/org/openoffice/Office/Common.xcu and search for DialogScale
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  IcoBgr, I didn't try to play with it but I think it must help....
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#880; font-weight:900'>ericb2</span>]
+  bye all, IcoBgr : thank you very much :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#008; font-weight:900'>Rail</span>]
+  ericb2, bye
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  ok friends, I need to leave too now
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  Bye AgnesB
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#080; font-weight:900'>IcoBgr</span>]
+  thanks for saving the log
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  IcoBgr: thanks for your presentation, I've got the logs
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  I was happy to do it :-)
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  Have a very good one .. bye bye all .. and too the next time
+<br />
+   [<span style='color:#800; font-weight:900'>AgnesB</span>]
+  bye
+<br />
+
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