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From Rob Weir <robw...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Test documents for Signature feature and Maven support for ODF artifacts
Date Wed, 21 Mar 2012 19:06:04 GMT
On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote:
> I think that "this document" and a "derivative work" are not the same document.
>
> What they don't want is someone passing a modification off as "this document" nor do
they want someone to take this document and strip it of the notifications.
>
> Good luck getting a standards organization to let loose of that.
>

It is interesting to look at the license Emca put on the OOXML
schemas. They appear to be more permissive.  Others, like the W3C, are
closer to how OASIS does it.

> What are you expecting for OASIS to provide that somehow satisfies your concern without
those documents having to be reissued?
>

I'm not expecting anything.  What they are providing is not really an
open source license, in the OSI sense.  It is more similar to what
some font licenses are -- you can redistribute, but not modify.   So I
am satisfied to simply have the build download the schemas when
needed.

If OASIS wanted to do something there are some other ways to approach
this.  For example, they could protect themselves via trademark rather
than relying on restrictions to the copyright license.  Or, they could
allow unrestricted modifications to the schema, but require that such
versions not be called "ODF" and not use the same namespace URI's.

-Rob

>
>  - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 08:54
> To: odf-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Test documents for Signature feature and Maven support for ODF artifacts
>
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote:
>> How is this
>>
>>  "... [D]erivative works that comment on or otherwise explain it or assist in its
implementation may be prepared, copied, published, and distributed, in whole or in part, without
restriction of any kind, provided that the above copyright notice and this section are included
on all such copies and derivative works."
>>
>> a problem?  It specifies a particular condition (assist in its implementation) on
purpose (though not "field of use"), and that seems to require Category B handling, at worst.
 There is no reciprocity condition, so that should be a relief.
>>
>
> It is the clause immediately following, which you stripped out:
>
> "However, this document itself may not be modified in any way,
> including by removing the copyright notice or references to OASIS,
> except as needed for the purpose of developing any document or
> deliverable produced by an OASIS Technical Committee (in which case
> the rules applicable to copyrights, as set forth in the OASIS IPR
> Policy, must be followed) or as required to translate it into
> languages other than English."
>
> See?  It doesn't permit all derivative works or all modifications.  It
> only allows a subset of them.
>
>> I do think that LEGAL is the best first step, because they are prepared for questions
on specific Apache Project uses in connection with specific licenses, something that it would
be strange for OASIS Legal to be able to address.  Getting a specific-use declaration from
OASIS is not likely to satisfy any expectation for a fully-satisfying open-source license
on these artifacts.  Just sayin' ... .
>>
>
> We've already done that.  You can check the legal-discuss archives,
> search for "OASIS".
>
> -Rob
>>  - Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 08:07
>> To: odf-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Test documents for Signature feature and Maven support for ODF artifacts
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>> <dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote:
>>> From the cover page of the ODF 1.2 specification:
>>>
>>> "This document and translations of it may be copied and furnished to others,
and derivative works that comment on or otherwise explain it or assist in its implementation
may be prepared, copied, published, and distributed, in whole or in part, without restriction
of any kind, provided that the above copyright notice and this section are included on all
such copies and derivative works. However, this document itself may not be modified in any
way, including by removing the copyright notice or references to OASIS, except as needed for
the purpose of developing any document or deliverable produced by an OASIS Technical Committee
(in which case the rules applicable to copyrights, as set forth in the OASIS IPR Policy, must
be followed) or as required to translate it into languages other than English."
>>>
>>> That should take care of copies of the specifications bundled in distributions,
kept in project repositories etc.
>>>
>>> The ODF 1.2 schema files have the same statement in their notices.
>>>
>>> Why is this not sufficient?
>>>
>>
>> It does not allow distribution of modifications, which is a key
>> attribute of an open source license.
>>
>>> It seems more appropriate to obtain from ASF Legal a determination of the class
of license this is for the specific purposes that you propose to make of it.
>>>
>>
>> We've done that already.  That is why we had to remove the schemas
>> from the repository and instead download them at build time.   Getting
>> them to Maven Central would be a more elegant way of doing this.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>>  - Dennis
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Svante Schubert [mailto:svante.schubert@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 07:28
>>> To: Biao Han
>>> Cc: odf-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Test documents for Signature feature and Maven support for ODF artifacts
>>>
>>> Hi Devin,
>>>
>>> as you had been the lead developer of the ODF signature feature.
>>> Would you be curious enough to test if the new signature documents from
>>> the OpenDocument Interoperability and Conformance OIC TC for signature
>>> work in our implementation?
>>> Please take a look at the bottom of
>>> http://tools.oasis-open.org/version-control/browse/wsvn/oic/Advisories/00008-DSig_Namespaces/trunk/description.html
>>>
>>> Those had been mentioned on our today's call.
>>>
>>> BTW currently, the ODF TC chair (Rob) is asking permission from OASIS to
>>> redistribute the ODF RelaxNG schema files on a Maven repository, so we
>>> do not have to download them for every build of the ODF toolkit -
>>> requiring Internet access - but once with Maven similar as the OOXML
>>> schema are downloaded via Maven by the Apache POI project.
>>> The next step would be to be able to download the specification for
>>> bundling it within our deployment as documentation and even more
>>> interesting to be able to download sets of test documents via Maven to
>>> be able to reuse them cross-project and keeping our repository lean.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Svante
>>>
>>
>

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