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From Devin Han <devin...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [tdf-discuss] ODF and HTML 5
Date Sun, 09 Oct 2011 07:23:42 GMT
2011/10/9 Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org>

> Hi Daisy,
>
> I am not certain there is a serious proposal for ODF+HTML5 yet.  There seem
> to be four levels of view:
>
>  1. One is to launch an ODF document from a web page, which is usually done
> with a plug-in.  The ODF processor is actually on the client in this case.
>

Just like open PDF in browser using a native-code plugin, either Adobe’s own
PDF Reader or other commercial renderers, or some open source alternative
(e.g. poppler). I also learn that some body try to use HTML5 and javascript
replace these plugins, such as pdf.js[1][2]. Google does the same thing in
Chrome. Now if we open a pdf document in Chrome, third-part plugin isn't
needed.
ODF document should also follow this trend. Why? I think the most important
aspect is helping ODF occupy the mobile market. There are so many different
hardwares and platforms in mobile device, so HTML5 and browser play a more
important role than in PC platform to shield difference. If we supply a
similar product like pdf.js, that would attract more users for ODF.

[1]http://andreasgal.com/2011/06/15/pdf-js/
[2]http://blog.mozilla.com/cjones/


>  2. Another would be to launch an ODF document on the server side.  I
> suppose that would be like Google Docs or Sky Drive or WebODF.
>

For  Google Docs and Sky Drive, it's true. But after I dive into WebODF,  I
believe it is a try of (1)- Rendering ODF with HTML5 and JavaScript.


>  3. Then there is a distributed operation that has a server-side ODF
> document (or representation) render in a browser in a natural way, perhaps
> in a frame that is an HTML5 object of some sort.  I also think some are
> imagining an <odf> tag that carries an in-line XML form of the single-stream
> ODF format.
>


I submitted a proposal[3] to W3C and suggest them add <odf> tag several
months ago.
 [3] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12957


>  4. An intermediate consideration, that came up at the ODF Interoperability
> and Conformance TC, is the notion of an ODF Web Profile that mapped some
> workable subset of ODF into an HTML5 rendering and vice versa. Even then
> there are two faces to it.  It would be great if plug-ins and applets and
> scripts could render into an ODF DOM inside of an ODF processor, and it
> would be great if the ODF processor could render into an HTML5 DOM and even
> be seen in that DOM.
>
> It's not clear what use case(s) are being considered.  I think it is a
> high-level fantasy that bolting ODF into HTML5 would draw much usage of ODF
> (and OpenOffice/LibreOffice) and that would be a good thing.
>
> It is in the last case (4) that I was thinking the ODF Toolkit might be
> useful for proof-of-concept work.  Java seems good for this, though I don't
> know Java is wanted running inside an HTML5 user agent, but it would be
> interesting for server-side case (2) [;<)
>


+1


>
> I am not sure what is the most natural fit.  It seems vague still.
>
> Does that give you any ideas?
>
>
>  - Dennis E. Hamilton
>   tools for document interoperability,  <http://nfoWorks.org/>
>   dennis.hamilton@acm.org  gsm: +1-206-779-9430  @orcmid
>
> PS: Daisy was my mother's name.  She was born Daisy Violet Sherman.  I
> smile when I see you go by Daisy.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daisy Guo [mailto:daisy.ycguo@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 19:01
> To: odf-dev@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] ODF and HTML 5
>
> Hi, Dennis
>
> I like your proposal. Web office becomes more and more popular than
> desktop office. It's a good idea to link ODF with HTML5.
> What kind of Prove of Concept is it in your mind, that you want to
> implement with ODF Toolkit? I believe there are some existing projects
> which are trying to implement the conversion between ODF and HTML5,
> like WebODF.
>
> Daisy
>
> 2011/10/4 Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org>:
> > My apologies for the heavy-duty cross-posting.  It might be good to pick
> a single public list and a subject header and converge there.
> >
> > Q: WHERE IS THE PROPOSAL?
> >
> > This started as a simple e-mail list question by Jaime R. Garza on the
> [tdf-discuss] list:
> > <http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/msg07698.html>.
> >
> > There is no proposal in the sense of some technical submission to adapt
> ODF for this purpose.  You are pretty much seeing the extent of the
> discussion so far.  The proposal is a paragraph and concept being echoed
> around these lists now.
> >
> > Q: WHERE TO BECOME INVOLVED IN ODF IN HTML5?
> >
> > There are probably two ways to be involved.
> >
> > First, development of a proof-of-concept and working [reference]
> implementation is valuable.
> >
> > Secondly, the development of necessary specifications, perhaps jointly
> between the OASIS ODF TC and the W3C, might be required.
> >
> > Also, one needs to differentiate between making some sort of
> OpenOffice.org/LibreOffice deliverable that works in HTML5 and a worked
> extension of HTML5 that somehow ties into the ODF Format.
> >
> > It might not even make technical sense to "make ODF part of HTML5," and
> that has to be resolved also.
> >
> > Q: WHAT ABOUT OASIS (and what does Rob Weir have to say about this)?
> >
> > Rob is on vacation this week.  I know he and others involved on the OASIS
> TCs are interested in this topic.
> >
> > A related topic (defining HTML5 presentation of ODF documents) was raised
> at the OASIS ODF Interoperability and Conformance (OIC TC) on their
> 2011-09-07 teleconference call:
> > <http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/oic/201109/msg00009.html>.  It
> came under section 3.2.3 Profiles.  The discussion is of a Web Profile for
> ODF.  That is not an insignificant effort.
> >
> > Q: WHAT ARE THE TECHNICAL CHALLENGES?
> >
> >   ODF has no rendering model and certainly not an
> interactive-presentation/-editing model.  None.  Obviously,
> OpenOffice.org/LibreOffice do, but those is not to be found in the ODF
> specification.
> >
> > There are an insignificant number of [X]HTML-isms in the ODF
> specifications.  XLINK is used, for example.
> >
> > There is no specified mapping to [X]HTML.  If there were, the
> import/export of [X]HTML in various implementations of ODF-bases software
> would presumable work better.  That would be the potential subject matter of
> a Web Profile though.
> >
> > There is no standardized ODF DOM (and API) nor a mapping of ODF into an
> HTML[5] DOM.  Somehow, to make macros and applets work inside ODF, something
> like this is required as well, although having it fit HTML5 as well might be
> a confusion of abstraction levels.  (The integration of macros and applets
> that access the interior structure and external presentation of an ODF
> document is implementation-defined in ODF 1.2.)
> >
> > Q: WHERE CAN TECHNICAL DEVELOPMENT HAPPEN?
> >
> > The ODF Toolkit project offers some DOM implementations, but they are not
> part of ODF itself.
> >
> > The ODF Toolkit project is currently being moved to Apache though.  That
> project is currently quite Java-centric.  It might be interesting to include
> that effort in this conversation, however.
> >
> > If a public reference implementation were to be developed, I believe it
> is desirable to have it be Apache licensed, wherever development were to
> occur.  The possibility of a new podling at Apache specifically for this
> effort should not be overlooked.
> >
> > That is the only political part that I see to these challenges, apart
> from developers, including in private projects, wanting to do it themselves.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jaime R. Garza [mailto:garzaj@gmail.com]
> > <http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/msg07708.html>
> > <
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201110.mbox/%3cCAJGN0paeBoKS7HTqpc0waW_qRJgcxEZr-rk+63MMBuBsCe-Xxg@mail.gmail.com%3e
> >
> >
> > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 03:29
> > To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> > Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] ODF and HTML 5
> >
> > Do you have any contacts, links, infos about the proposal and status? I
> > would really like to get involved!
> >
> > I think the first step is to integrate ODF into HTML5 as read only,
> editing
> > could come later. But this is more political than technical.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Jaime
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 11:07, Ian Lynch <ianrlynch@gmail.com> wrote:
> > < http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/msg07705.html>
> > <
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201110.mbox/%3cCAOap24+y0rFCOA78YFHTLMURQ5LO4OJ7aaLyi3HP0rtFm-2EOw@mail.gmail.com%3e
> >
> >
> >> There has been a proposal to try and get ODF recognised as an official
> >> extension of HTML5. On the face of it it sounds a good idea but I
> >> don't know enough about the details or whether this is already in
> >> progress. I guess it would require discussion with W3C, OASIS, and
> >> probably TDF and ASF as a minimum. A logical technical need could be
> >> to develop ODF rendering and editing in web browsers. To start with
> >> this might simply be a limited subset of what can be achieved in
> >> OO/LibO.
> >> --
> >> Ian
> > [ ... ]
> >
> >
>
>


-- 
-Devin

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