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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <>
Subject RE: [tdf-discuss] ODF and HTML 5
Date Sun, 09 Oct 2011 02:40:24 GMT
Hi Daisy,

I am not certain there is a serious proposal for ODF+HTML5 yet.  There seem to be four levels
of view:  

 1. One is to launch an ODF document from a web page, which is usually done with a plug-in.
 The ODF processor is actually on the client in this case.

 2. Another would be to launch an ODF document on the server side.  I suppose that would be
like Google Docs or Sky Drive or WebODF.

 3. Then there is a distributed operation that has a server-side ODF document (or representation)
render in a browser in a natural way, perhaps in a frame that is an HTML5 object of some sort.
 I also think some are imagining an <odf> tag that carries an in-line XML form of the
single-stream ODF format.

 4. An intermediate consideration, that came up at the ODF Interoperability and Conformance
TC, is the notion of an ODF Web Profile that mapped some workable subset of ODF into an HTML5
rendering and vice versa. Even then there are two faces to it.  It would be great if plug-ins
and applets and scripts could render into an ODF DOM inside of an ODF processor, and it would
be great if the ODF processor could render into an HTML5 DOM and even be seen in that DOM.

It's not clear what use case(s) are being considered.  I think it is a high-level fantasy
that bolting ODF into HTML5 would draw much usage of ODF (and OpenOffice/LibreOffice) and
that would be a good thing.

It is in the last case (4) that I was thinking the ODF Toolkit might be useful for proof-of-concept
work.  Java seems good for this, though I don't know Java is wanted running inside an HTML5
user agent, but it would be interesting for server-side case (2) [;<)

I am not sure what is the most natural fit.  It seems vague still.

Does that give you any ideas?

 - Dennis E. Hamilton
   tools for document interoperability,  <>  gsm: +1-206-779-9430  @orcmid

PS: Daisy was my mother's name.  She was born Daisy Violet Sherman.  I smile when I see you
go by Daisy.

-----Original Message-----
From: Daisy Guo [] 
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 19:01
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] ODF and HTML 5

Hi, Dennis

I like your proposal. Web office becomes more and more popular than
desktop office. It's a good idea to link ODF with HTML5.
What kind of Prove of Concept is it in your mind, that you want to
implement with ODF Toolkit? I believe there are some existing projects
which are trying to implement the conversion between ODF and HTML5,
like WebODF.


2011/10/4 Dennis E. Hamilton <>:
> My apologies for the heavy-duty cross-posting.  It might be good to pick a single public
list and a subject header and converge there.
> This started as a simple e-mail list question by Jaime R. Garza on the [tdf-discuss]
> <>.
> There is no proposal in the sense of some technical submission to adapt ODF for this
purpose.  You are pretty much seeing the extent of the discussion so far.  The proposal is
a paragraph and concept being echoed around these lists now.
> There are probably two ways to be involved.
> First, development of a proof-of-concept and working [reference] implementation is valuable.
> Secondly, the development of necessary specifications, perhaps jointly between the OASIS
ODF TC and the W3C, might be required.
> Also, one needs to differentiate between making some sort of
deliverable that works in HTML5 and a worked extension of HTML5 that somehow ties into the
ODF Format.
> It might not even make technical sense to "make ODF part of HTML5," and that has to be
resolved also.
> Q: WHAT ABOUT OASIS (and what does Rob Weir have to say about this)?
> Rob is on vacation this week.  I know he and others involved on the OASIS TCs are interested
in this topic.
> A related topic (defining HTML5 presentation of ODF documents) was raised at the OASIS
ODF Interoperability and Conformance (OIC TC) on their 2011-09-07 teleconference call:
> <>.  It came under
section 3.2.3 Profiles.  The discussion is of a Web Profile for ODF.  That is not an insignificant
>   ODF has no rendering model and certainly not an interactive-presentation/-editing model.
 None.  Obviously, do, but those is not to be found in the ODF
> There are an insignificant number of [X]HTML-isms in the ODF specifications.  XLINK is
used, for example.
> There is no specified mapping to [X]HTML.  If there were, the import/export of [X]HTML
in various implementations of ODF-bases software would presumable work better.  That would
be the potential subject matter of a Web Profile though.
> There is no standardized ODF DOM (and API) nor a mapping of ODF into an HTML[5] DOM.
 Somehow, to make macros and applets work inside ODF, something like this is required as well,
although having it fit HTML5 as well might be a confusion of abstraction levels.  (The integration
of macros and applets that access the interior structure and external presentation of an ODF
document is implementation-defined in ODF 1.2.)
> The ODF Toolkit project offers some DOM implementations, but they are not part of ODF
> The ODF Toolkit project is currently being moved to Apache though.  That project is currently
quite Java-centric.  It might be interesting to include that effort in this conversation,
> If a public reference implementation were to be developed, I believe it is desirable
to have it be Apache licensed, wherever development were to occur.  The possibility of a new
podling at Apache specifically for this effort should not be overlooked.
> That is the only political part that I see to these challenges, apart from developers,
including in private projects, wanting to do it themselves.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jaime R. Garza []
> <>
> <>
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 03:29
> To:
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] ODF and HTML 5
> Do you have any contacts, links, infos about the proposal and status? I
> would really like to get involved!
> I think the first step is to integrate ODF into HTML5 as read only, editing
> could come later. But this is more political than technical.
> Cheers!
> Jaime
> On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 11:07, Ian Lynch <> wrote:
> <>
> <>
>> There has been a proposal to try and get ODF recognised as an official
>> extension of HTML5. On the face of it it sounds a good idea but I
>> don't know enough about the details or whether this is already in
>> progress. I guess it would require discussion with W3C, OASIS, and
>> probably TDF and ASF as a minimum. A logical technical need could be
>> to develop ODF rendering and editing in web browsers. To start with
>> this might simply be a limited subset of what can be achieved in
>> OO/LibO.
>> --
>> Ian
> [ ... ]

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