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From "William A. Rowe, Jr." <>
Subject Re: What do do with Heraldy?
Date Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:21:37 GMT

Recordon, David wrote:
> I agree with Ted that those are the two main issues.  I think the
> difference is that the community is now ready to address them where we
> weren't in October.

What's fascinating here is that I believe you speak for yourself and with
all sincerity that the issues are understood, and that you personally are
ready to meet those two challenges.

In sharp contrast;

Scott Kveton wrote:
> Ted Leung inquired:
>> I'm sorry that you've come to this conclusion, but I understand your
>> reasoning.   One thing that's not clear to me is whether you are just
>> speaking for yourself or whether you are speaking for the JanRain
>> folks as a group?
> Kevin is speaking for all of us.  We've spent countless hours
> thinking/discussing this and going over what it would mean and this just
> seems to be the best solution for JanRain, Apache and the OpenID community
> as a whole.

Which is in fact the crux of why JanRain's development style and team
simply is not compatible with the style of development that occurs in
the Apache Software Foundation.

At this foundation, unlike many in the open source sphere, developers
speak for themselves, and contribute first as individuals.  Companies
are respected for sharing their employee's time with the ASF, we have
many valued technology firms represented here.  However, individual
contributors are more highly valued and respected for their specific
contributions at the ASF.

So Scott's note perfectly reflects this pattern which has prevented
JanRain's involvement in Heraldry from blending into the ASF methodology.
I don't mean this as any indictment, simply an incompatibility the same
way several GUI screens, some coded for WinForms and some coded for Struts
can be very difficult to combine.

Recordon, David continued:
> I would propose that within a week from today the last batch commit is
> made.  Within a week from that all license files are updated and we've
> started the process of IP forms for the various initial commits (I
> started one for VeriSign months ago but couldn't figure out how to do it
> correctly).  So within two weeks from today all code is in, the license
> issue is resolved, and IPR review is underway.

Those are good goals; but it will be a little while before those can be
addressed, I think your bullet item below is more significant over this
coming week...

>>>From the day of the batch commit, it should be understood that all
> discussions and bug tracking must occur on this list and in Jira.
> I also think we should look at the committers list and refine as needed.

Yes, we already need to record Paul's stepping down as a Mentor, and
Scott and Kevin stepping down as committers, if I understood their notes.
I presume there are other lurkers that are likely to leave this incubating
project as part of JanRain's decision, but there is no 'requirement' to do
so here by the ASF (although moving forward, committers must all honor the
basic requests for open dialog on this development list and resolve the
open LGPL headers issue.)

Krall, Gary wrote:
> Given that Verisign through a number of sources has contributed code
> to this project and we have a number of external sources who are actually
> using the code that have provided fixes to it what specifically does this
> mean?

First, everyone here (and everyone elsewhere) has a license to this svn
code base.  Heraldry the project name (not the code) is the ASF's to use
or to surrender to another venue, depending on the decisions on this list
and amongst the Incubator PMC.  Under the ASF license, you can continue
to use the code as developed to date, and take it from here to wherever,
together or independently.

It appears to mean that one of three things is going to happen next,
following Kevin's announcement;

 * JanRain will move their development efforts to a new context with (one
   would hope) a set of policies that allow potential contributors to
   evaluate their decision to contribute at that new venue/context.

 * The remaining contributors will decide if they want to join JanRain
   in the new venue/context.

 * The remaining contributors will decide to continue or to fold this
   Heraldry incubating effort.

2 & 3 above aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.  However, as with most
forks, dual/dueling contributions rarely succeeds in the long-term.  There
are obviously multiple levels; this code base, JanRain's re-assumed code
base, the forthcoming OpenID Foundation, etc etc.  What companies and
individuals decide to do from here is going to be up to all of you,
independently and interdependently.

For purposes of this list, it's up to the remaining community to decide
what is next for Heraldry.  Based on David's optimism at the beginning
of my quotes above, as one voice from the PMC we'll leave it to all the
remaining participants to discuss and see exactly where that leads.


(That is what had been missing at the project in the first place, so here's
a wide open opportunity to remedy that.)

As a footnote, I'd been asked if I could help out here and help mentor
through some of these issues, after Paul had stepped down, and before
Kevin's announcement.  I had put it off in order to graduate at least
one (if not two) of the three incubating projects I'm involved in, and
a vote was just put to the general@ forum this morning.  So I'm still
happy to do so, if the remaining Heraldry community wants to pull this
incubating project together here, at the ASF.

And if not, we certainly understand, and if the remaining members vote
to dissolve this incubating effort in the next week or two, we can see
what the Incubator PMC has to say about the Heraldry project name if
there is one clear group who desires to use it, and it isn't contested
by multiple forks.

Good luck to you all in your development efforts here or at other,
future OpenID technology development forums.



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