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From "Recordon, David" <>
Subject RE: heads up / hosting buildbot
Date Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:23:45 GMT
Replying to Ted's message, though also replying to Paul at the same time...

I think this developer community both understands and appreciates the issues that the Heraldry
project has.  To me, I see Kevin's message as a step in the right direction.  It shows commitment
on behalf of JanRain to change their development practices and move to become a real part
of Heraldry.  I've also been trying myself to write some code and engage this list over the
past week and intend to continue doing so.  There are others as well in the CardSpace community
who have expressed interest to me in donating code to the project, though are unready to do
so right now for one reason or another.  Do I feel that anything we've done thus far is perfect,
let alone great; no.

With that said, I think this is the drop dead point of either this project really gets up
and moves forward or dies by its next board report.  I agree block commits suck and are annoying,
but if that is what it is going to take so that real-time and active development can/will
occur here, then I think the pain it causes one final time is worthwhile.  Quite honestly,
the OpenID community is moving too fast to spread these commits out over the next month, let
alone figure out how to deal with commits that would happen within the next month.  I also
assume that updating the license from the LGPL to ASFv2 would be part of this effort, as it
seems Kevin’s message expresses real commitment to making this project succeed.

IMHO, we need this final chance to show that we can make this happen, and yes we will stumble
over The Apache Way from time to time, but at least this one last block commit will give us
the chance to deal with the other issues Ted raised.  To me, this means we’ll either succeed
or go down in flames; though not just give up now.


-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Leung []
Sent: Mon 1/29/2007 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: heads up / hosting buildbot
Hash: SHA1

Hi Kevin,

See the comments inline - these apply to the entire Heraldry community.

On Jan 29, 2007, at 5:13 PM, Kevin Turner wrote:

> Dear fellow Heraldry members,
> [Short version: beware impending commit storm.  And where do we put
> buildbot?
> Read on for details.]
> It's no secret that there's been much grumbling and dragging of feet
> here in Portland about changing the tools and workflow we've used to
> develop our libraries over the past year and a half.  We tried to  
> figure
> out some way to meet half-way and keep the best of both worlds, but  
> that
> ended up being a lot of overhead for us and not working especially  
> well
> for either us or the rest of the Heraldry.
> There have been several rounds of internal debate, and I've just come
> from the most recent one.  This time, I think the results were  
> decisive.
> We are going to abandon darcs and use svn for all Heraldry projects.

I appreciate that you folks are experiencing pain on the tools and  
workflow issues.   Depending on the project, that is not an unusual  
experience for an incubated project.    I also appreciate that  
switching from darcs to svn is a big deal for Janrain.    I am glad  
to hear that the Apache svn will be the authoritative version control  
for Heraldry.   However, there are still several issues which of high  
priority to me, and most likely the other Apache mentors:

1. Silence on the dev-list.    We have had a very small amount of  
traffic on heraldry-dev.   The recent burst of copied messages from  
the openid list are traffic, but they are not directly about the  
development of the Heraldry code base.    Again, I refer you to the  
Incubator documents on committers: < 
guides/committer.html>.  In particular, let me highlight the phrase:  
"As some people say, 'If it isn't in my email, it didn't happen.'  
Decisions only get made on public Apache mail lists -- not anywhere  
off list, such as IRC, IM, or private emails".    Folks, we are doing  
terrible on this count, and I don't really see much sign of this  
improving.   This needs to improve *hugely* in order for Heraldry to  
have a chance of graduating from incubation

2. We still have files in the SVN which are LGPL licensed.    I've  
asked for this to be corrected on two separate occasions:  <http://>   
and < 
msg00098.html>.  We really need to take care of this.

I mentioned both of these issues in this month's Incubator board  
report.   For those of you who don't follow, I'm quoting the following message from  
ASF board member Cliff Schmidt <>:

> Incubator PMC,
> On behalf of the Board, I want to thank you for the latest status  
> report.  There was one part of the report we would like to follow- 
> up on:
> The report on Heraldry mentions a "single large block checkin",  
> "almost no activity" on the dev list, and license problems not  
> being responded to "despite requests from the mentors".  The Board  
> requests that the Incubator PMC describe what action it plans to  
> take about this situation in next month's report.
> Thank you,
> Cliff

The ASF board takes issues like this very seriously, and we as a  
podling need to take these issues seriously.   We need to start  
making some progress on all these issues, and we need to do it soon.


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