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From "William A. Rowe, Jr." <>
Subject Re: Getting Updated JanRain Code In (WAS: RE: Board response to January Report on Heraldry)
Date Wed, 31 Jan 2007 05:25:47 GMT
Ted Leung wrote:
> There is one time during the incubation process when we allow a major
> drop of code.  That's the initial import of the project.   Given the
> current state of the project, I think you could almost argue that all
> these block commits be wound up together and regarded as that initial
> import.   I believe that we can find a way to get the code into svn.

I agree with Ted; present the code, the repository is commit-then-review
so there is no obstacle.  Move discussion of what is going on with it,
and the next directions, to dev@ and out of the conference room.

> What I am still not convinced about is whether or not we are actually
> going to see any development discussions on this list.   David, I've
> heard you interpreting Kevin/JanRain's actions, but I haven't heard
> anyone from Janrain - and there are 7 Heraldry committers from JanRain,
> not just Kevin - explicitly say that they are also moving the
> development discussions to the heraldry lists.   If fhat isn't part of
> the commitment, then getting the rest of the code in here is
> pointless.   Given the history of the podling so far, I'm not willing to
> assume that is implied in the decision to get off darcs and onto svn.  
> I'd like to hear directly from the folks at JanRain on this.   In order
> for this to work, we need to have all the committers, regardless of
> employer, participating and engaged.   Right now only a fraction of the
> people with commit privileges are involved in this conversation.   I
> would really like to see the Heraldry committers use this list to
> propose a plan for how to proceed.   This needs to happen soon.

This point is dead-on.  As an ASF project, it is not acceptable to leave
the discussions of the code and project direction in a JanRain conference
room.  That dialog -must- occur on-list.  It must involve the entire
project community.  Decisions for an ASF project do not get handed down
from on-high.

Right now, that is heavily weighted twords JanRain developers.  IF that
is the majority of the (active) project contributors, this project will
not graduate.

In order to graduate, a broader development community is required.  No ASF
project is allowed to persist at the whim of one employer, only the whim
of the project committers.  IF the development dialog doesn't move to the
list, heraldry will not grow a larger engaged committer base.

Believe me, I'm sympathetic; several of the key developers worked with me
at Covalent during the creation of APR and the Apache 2 branch.  Several
more employees would discover bugs while writing custom or proprietary
modules; they would presume these could just be pushed through during
engineering meeting discussions.  It took a conscious effort to push back
the design to the list.  The one f2f was to resolve a logjam, and all of
the committers were invited to SanFran to hear both contested proposals
(originally presented to the list) at length and debate the merits in
higher bandwidth.

Even good projects have these issues, IRC is often abused to hand down
decisions made off list, hackathons can be a problem if the debate and
decisions don't land back on the list after discussion.

I'm not as worried about Ted's request for a "plan".  I would rather see
action in terms of all committers and contributors moving the project's
direction back onto the dev@ list.

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