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From Tim Armstrong <tarmstr...@cloudera.com>
Subject Re: Looking for Champion
Date Fri, 08 Jun 2018 16:18:56 GMT
> Meanwhile we found Impala is a very good MPP SQL query engine, so we integrated
them together.

Palo didn't integrate with Impala, it forked Impala's codebase and embedded
it in its own repository. I don't remember any attempts from the Palo team
to engage with the Impala community or attempt to work with us to
contribute any improvements.

It looks like Palo is still pulling in new code from Impala.  E.g. this
commit includes a bunch of code I wrote as part of IMPALA-3200:
https://github.com/baidu/palo/commit/2419384e8a211f10e7636afc6d3423700ba22b5a#diff-1c501d9a8b5c3d1d1cce48d5e1fb0edf

The code isn't owned by any individual, I contributed it to Apache and it's
free for anyone to do what they want to do with it, but pulling in
improvements from other projects without any attempt to attribute it or
contribute improvements back seems contrary to the Apache way.

Anyway, maybe incubation is an opportunity for us to work together, but I'd
hope that if Palo does go into incubation that it will rethink some of the
practices it's been following.

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 9:12 AM, Todd Lipcon <todd@cloudera.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 11:55 PM, Li,De(BDG) <lide@baidu.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi, Jim
> >
> > Thank you for your response.
> > Actually, we start Palo in several years ago, and that time we developed
> > the storage engine based on Mesa technology.
> > Meanwhile we found Impala is a very good MPP SQL query engine, so we
> > integrated them together.
> >
>
> From what I can tell of the Palo source, it's not so much an integration as
> a copied-and-modified codebase, right? i.e Palo does not use Impala as a
> dependency, but rather shares a lot of code from the Impala project that
> has since diverged.
>
>
> >
> > With this integration, the goal of Palo is to implement a single,
> > full-featured, mysql protocol compatible data warehousing.
> >
>
> That sounds pretty similar to the goals of the Impala project. Impala isn't
> MySQL-compatible at the moment but that seems more like a particular
> feature that could be added rather than a distinct identity of the project.
> Otherwise, Impala's goal is to be a full featured data warehouse engine as
> well.
>
> Generally Apache has no rules against multiple projects fulfilling similar
> goals or use cases, even when those projects might compete. However I think
> it would be relatively unusual to incubate a project that appears to be
> derived from a fork of an existing project, at least without first
> considering whether the additional feature set could be contributed back to
> the existing community.
>
> -Todd
>
>
> > 在 2018/6/8 下午1:55, "Jim Apple" <jbapple@apache.org> 写入:
> >
> > >Hello! As a contributor to Impala, I’d be interested in hearing thoughts
> > >from the Palo community about integration between Impala and Palo.
> > >
> > >For instance, are there any apparent design goals of Impala that the
> Palo
> > >community thinks are fundamentally incompatible with Palo?
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Jim
> > >
> > >On 2018/06/08 04:45:32, "Li,De(BDG)" <lide@baidu.com> wrote:
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> I am Reed, as a developer worked with the team for Palo (a MPP-based
> > >>interactive SQL data warehousing).
> > >> https://github.com/baidu/palo/wiki/Palo-Overview
> > >>
> > >> We propose to contribute Palo as an Apache Incubator project, and
> > >> we are still looking for possible Champion if anyone would like to
> > >>volunteer. Thanks a lot.
> > >>
> > >> Best Regards,
> > >> Reed
> > >>
> > >> ===================
> > >> The draft of the proposal as below:
> > >>
> > >> #Apache Palo
> > >>
> > >> ##Abstract
> > >>
> > >> Palo is a MPP-based interactive SQL data warehousing for reporting and
> > >>analysis.
> > >>
> > >> ##Proposal
> > >>
> > >> We propose to contribute the Palo codebase and associated artifacts
> > >>(e.g. documentation, web-site content etc.) to the Apache Software
> > >>Foundation with the intent of forming a productive, meritocratic and
> > >>open community around Palo’s continued development, according to the
> > >>‘Apache Way’.
> > >>
> > >> Baidu owns several trademarks regarding Palo, and proposes to transfer
> > >>ownership of those trademarks in full to the ASF.
> > >>
> > >> ###Overview of Palo
> > >>
> > >> Palo’s implementation consists of two daemons: Frontend (FE) and
> > >>Backend (BE).
> > >>
> > >> **Frontend daemon** consists of query coordinator and catalog manager.
> > >>Query coordinator is responsible for receiving users’ sql queries,
> > >>compiling queries and managing queries execution. Catalog manager is
> > >>responsible for managing metadata such as databases, tables,
> partitions,
> > >>replicas and etc. Several frontend daemons could be deployed to
> > >>guarantee fault-tolerance, and load balancing.
> > >>
> > >> **Backend daemon** stores the data and executes the query fragments.
> > >>Many backend daemons could also be deployed to provide scalability and
> > >>fault-tolerance.
> > >>
> > >> A typical Palo cluster generally composes of several frontend daemons
> > >>and dozens to hundreds of backend daemons.
> > >>
> > >> Users can use MySQL client tools to connect any frontend daemon to
> > >>submit SQL query. Frontend receives the query and compiles it into
> query
> > >>plans executable by the Backend. Then Frontend sends the query plan
> > >>fragments to Backend. Backend will build a query execution DAG. Data is
> > >>fetched and pipelined into the DAG. The final result response is sent
> to
> > >>client via Frontend. The distribution of query fragment execution takes
> > >>minimizing data movement and maximizing scan locality as the main goal.
> > >>
> > >> ##Background
> > >>
> > >> At Baidu, Prior to Palo, different tools were deployed to solve
> diverse
> > >>requirements in many ways. And when a use case requires the
> simultaneous
> > >>availability of capabilities that cannot all be provided by a single
> > >>tool, users were forced to build hybrid architectures that stitch
> > >>multiple tools together, but we believe that they shouldn’t need to
> > >>accept such inherent complexity. A storage system built to provide
> great
> > >>performance across a broad range of workloads provides a more elegant
> > >>solution to the problems that hybrid architectures aim to solve. Palo
> is
> > >>the solution.
> > >>
> > >> Palo is designed to be a simple and single tightly coupled system, not
> > >>depending on other systems. Palo provides high concurrent low latency
> > >>point query performance, but also provides high throughput queries of
> > >>ad-hoc analysis. Palo provides bulk-batch data loading, but also
> > >>provides near real-time mini-batch data loading. Palo also provides
> high
> > >>availability, reliability, fault tolerance, and scalability.
> > >>
> > >> ##Rationale
> > >>
> > >> Palo mainly integrates the technology of Google Mesa and Apache
> Impala.
> > >>
> > >> Mesa is a highly scalable analytic data storage system that stores
> > >>critical measurement data related to Google's Internet advertising
> > >>business. Mesa is designed to satisfy complex and challenging set of
> > >>users’ and systems’ requirements, including near real-time data
> > >>ingestion and query ability, as well as high availability, reliability,
> > >>fault tolerance, and scalability for large data and query volumes.
> > >>
> > >> Impala is a modern, open-source MPP SQL engine architected from the
> > >>ground up for the Hadoop data processing environment. At present, by
> > >>virtue of its superior performance and rich functionality, Impala has
> > >>been comparable to many commercial MPP database query engine. Mesa can
> > >>satisfy the needs of many of our storage requirements, however Mesa
> > >>itself does not provide a SQL query engine; Impala is a very good MPP
> > >>SQL query engine, but the lack of a perfect distributed storage engine.
> > >>So in the end we chose the combination of these two technologies.
> > >>
> > >> Learning from Mesa’s data model, we developed a distributed storage
> > >>engine. Unlike Mesa, this storage engine does not rely on any
> > >>distributed file system. Then we deeply integrate this storage engine
> > >>with Impala query engine. Query compiling, query execution coordination
> > >>and catalog management of storage engine are integrated to be frontend
> > >>daemon; query execution and data storage are integrated to be backend
> > >>daemon. With this integration, we implemented a single, full-featured,
> > >>high performance state the art of MPP database, as well as maintaining
> > >>the simplicity.
> > >>
> > >> ##Current Status
> > >>
> > >> Palo has been an open source project on GitHub
> > >>(https://github.com/baidu/palo).
> > >>
> > >> ###Meritocracy
> > >>
> > >> Palo has been deployed in production at Baidu and is applying more
> than
> > >>200 lines of business. It has demonstrated great performance benefits
> > >>and has proved to be a better way for reporting and analysis based big
> > >>data. Still We look forward to growing a rich user and developer
> > >>community.
> > >>
> > >> ###Community
> > >>
> > >> Palo seeks to develop developer and user communities during
> incubation.
> > >>
> > >> ###Core Developers
> > >>
> > >> * Ruyue Ma (https://github.com/maruyue,
> > >>maruyue@baidu.com<mailto:maruyue@baidu.com>)
> > >> * Chun Zhao (https://github.com/imay,
> > >>buaa.zhaoc@gmail.com<mailto:buaa.zhaoc@gmail.com>)
> > >> * Mingyu Chen (https://github.com/morningman,chenmingyu@baidu.com)
> > >> * De Li(https://github.com/lide-reed,
> > >>mailtolide@sina.com)<mailto:mailtolide@sina.com%EF%BC%89>
> > >> * Hao Chen (https://github.com/chenhao7253886,
> > >>chenhao16@baidu.com<mailto:chenhao16@baidu.com>)
> > >> * Chaoyong Li (https://github.com/cyongli,
> > >>lichaoyong@baidu.com<mailto:lichaoyong@baidu.com>)
> > >> * Bin Lin (https://github.com/lingbin,
> > >>lingbinlb@gmail.com<mailto:lingbinlb@gmail.com>)
> > >>
> > >> ###Alignment
> > >>
> > >> Palo is related to several other Apache projects:
> > >>
> > >> * Palo can also read data stored in Apache Hadoop clusters powered by
> > >>the HDFS filesystem.
> > >> * Palo is closely integrated with Impala, which is also being proposed
> > >>to the Incubator.
> > >> * Palo uses Apache Thrift as its RPC and serialization framework of
> > >>choice.
> > >>
> > >> ##Known Risks
> > >>
> > >> ###Orphaned Products
> > >>
> > >> The core developers of Palo team plan to work full time on this
> > >>project. There is very little risk of Palo getting orphaned since at
> > >>least one large company (Baidu) is extensively using it in their
> > >>production. For example, currently there are more than 200 use cases
> > >>using Palo in production. Furthermore, since Palo was open sourced at
> > >>the beginning of October 2017, it has received more than 660 stars and
> > >>been forked nearly 170 times. We plan to extend and diversify this
> > >>community further through Apache.
> > >>
> > >> ###Inexperience with Open Source
> > >>
> > >> The core developers are all active users and followers of open source.
> > >>They are already committers and contributors to the Palo Github
> project.
> > >>All have been involved with the source code that has been released
> under
> > >>an open source license, and several of them also have experience
> > >>developing code in an open source environment. Though the core set of
> > >>Developers do not have Apache Open Source experience, there are plans
> to
> > >>onboard individuals with Apache open source experience on to the
> project.
> > >>
> > >> ###Homogenous Developers
> > >>
> > >> The most of core developers are from Baidu, but after Palo was open
> > >>sourced, Palo received a lot of bug fixes and enhancements from other
> > >>developers not working at Baidu.
> > >>
> > >> ###Reliance on Salaried Developers
> > >>
> > >> Baidu invested in Palo as the OLAP solution and some of its key
> > >>engineers are working full time on the project. In addition, since
> there
> > >>is a growing Big Data need for scalable OLAP solutions, we look forward
> > >>to other Apache developers and researchers to contribute to the
> project.
> > >>Also key to addressing the risk associated with relying on Salaried
> > >>developers from a single entity is to increase the diversity of the
> > >>contributors and actively lobby for Domain experts in the BI space to
> > >>contribute. Apache Palo intends to do this.
> > >>
> > >> ###An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
> > >>
> > >> Palo is proposing to enter incubation at Apache in order to help
> > >>efforts to diversify the committer-base, not so much to capitalize on
> > >>the Apache brand. The Palo project is in production use already inside
> > >>Baidu, but is not expected to be an Baidu product for external
> > >>customers. As such, the Palo project is not seeking to use the Apache
> > >>brand as a marketing tool.
> > >>
> > >> ##Documentation
> > >>
> > >> Information about Palo can be found at https://github.com/baidu/palo.
> > >>The following links provide more information about Palo in open source:
> > >>
> > >> * Palo wiki site: https://github.com/baidu/palo/wiki
> > >> * Codebase at Github: https://github.com/baidu/palo
> > >> * Issue Tracking: https://github.com/baidu/palo/issues
> > >> * Overview: https://github.com/baidu/palo/wiki/Palo-Overview
> > >> * FAQ: https://github.com/baidu/palo/wiki/Palo-FAQ
> > >>
> > >> ##Initial Source
> > >>
> > >> Palo has been under development since 2017 by a team of engineers at
> > >>Baidu Inc. It is currently hosted on Github.com under an Apache license
> > >>at https://github.com/baidu/palo.
> > >>
> > >> ##External Dependencies
> > >>
> > >> Palo has the following external dependencies.
> > >>
> > >> * Google gflags (BSD)
> > >> * Google glog (BSD)
> > >> * Apache Thrift (Apache Software License v2.0)
> > >> * Apache Commons (Apache Software License v2.0)
> > >> * Boost (Boost Software License)
> > >> * OpenLdap (OpenLDAP Software License)
> > >> * rapidjson (Tencent)
> > >> * Google RE2 (BSD-style)
> > >> * lz4 (BSD)
> > >> * snappy (BSD)
> > >> * cyrus-sasl (CMU License)
> > >> * Twitter Bootstrap (Apache Software License v2.0)
> > >> * d3 (BSD)
> > >> * LLVM (BSD-like)
> > >>
> > >> Build and test dependencies:
> > >>
> > >> * ant (Apache Software License v2.0)
> > >> * Apache Maven (Apache Software License v2.0)
> > >> * cmake (BSD)
> > >> * clang (BSD)
> > >> * Google gtest (Apache Software License v2.0)
> > >>
> > >> ##Required Resources
> > >>
> > >> ###Mailing List
> > >>
> > >> There are currently no mailing lists. The usual mailing lists are
> > >>expected to be set up when entering incubation:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>private@palo.incubator.apache.org<mailto:private@
> > palo.incubator.apache.or
> > >>g>
> > >> dev@palo.incubator.apache.org<mailto:dev@palo.incubator.apache.org>
> > >>
> > >>commits@palo.incubator.apache.org<mailto:commits@
> > palo.incubator.apache.or
> > >>g>
> > >>
> > >> ###Subversion Directory
> > >>
> > >> Upon entering incubation: https://github.com/baidu/palo.
> > >> After incubation, we want to move the existing repo from
> > >>https://github.com/baidu/palo to Apache infrastructure.
> > >>
> > >> ###Issue Tracking
> > >>
> > >> Palo currently uses GitHub to track issues. Would like to continue to
> > >>do so while we discuss migration possibilities with the ASF Infra
> > >>committee.
> > >>
> > >> ###Other Resources
> > >>
> > >> The existing code already has unit tests so we will make use of
> > >>existing Apache continuous testing infrastructure. The resulting load
> > >>should not be very large.
> > >>
> > >> ##Initial Committers
> > >>
> > >> * Ruyue Ma (https://github.com/maruyue,
> > >>maruyue@baidu.com<mailto:maruyue@baidu.com>)
> > >> * Chun Zhao (https://github.com/imay,
> > >>buaa.zhaoc@gmail.com<mailto:buaa.zhaoc@gmail.com>)
> > >> * Mingyu Chen (https://github.com/morningman,chenmingyu@baidu.com)
> > >> * De Li(https://github.com/lide-reed,
> > >>mailtolide@sina.com)<mailto:mailtolide@sina.com%EF%BC%89>
> > >> * Hao Chen (https://github.com/chenhao7253886,
> > >>chenhao16@baidu.com<mailto:chenhao16@baidu.com>)
> > >> * Chaoyong Li (https://github.com/cyongli,
> > >>lichaoyong@baidu.com<mailto:lichaoyong@baidu.com>)
> > >> * Bin Lin (https://github.com/lingbin,
> > >>lingbinlb@gmail.com<mailto:lingbinlb@gmail.com>)
> > >>
> > >> ##Affiliations
> > >>
> > >> The initial committers are employees of Baidu Inc.. The nominated
> > >>mentors are employees of TODO.
> > >>
> > >> ##Sponsors
> > >>
> > >> ###Champion
> > >>
> > >> TODO
> > >>
> > >> ###Nominated Mentors
> > >>
> > >> * sijie guo, guosijie@gmail.com<mailto:guosijie@gmail.com>
> > >> * Luke Han, lukehan@apache.org<mailto:lukehan@apache.org>
> > >> * Zheng Shao, zshao@apache.org<mailto:zshao@apache.org>
> > >>
> > >> ###Sponsoring Entity
> > >>
> > >> We are requesting the Incubator to sponsor this project.
> > >>
> > >
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> >
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>
>
>
> --
> Todd Lipcon
> Software Engineer, Cloudera
>

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