From general-return-64170-archive-asf-public=cust-asf.ponee.io@incubator.apache.org Tue Apr 17 01:42:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Delivered-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by mx-eu-01.ponee.io (Postfix) with SMTP id C9D75180608 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:42:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 8741 invoked by uid 500); 16 Apr 2018 23:42:47 -0000 Mailing-List: contact general-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list general@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 8719 invoked by uid 99); 16 Apr 2018 23:42:46 -0000 Received: from pnap-us-west-generic-nat.apache.org (HELO spamd2-us-west.apache.org) (209.188.14.142) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 23:42:46 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamd2-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamd2-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTP id 2F9F81A1C68 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 23:42:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamd2-us-west.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.811 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.811 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=disabled Authentication-Results: spamd2-us-west.apache.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.net Received: from mx1-lw-eu.apache.org ([10.40.0.8]) by localhost (spamd2-us-west.apache.org [10.40.0.9]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jrJxY2af6TJf for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 23:42:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from resqmta-po-05v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-05v.sys.comcast.net [96.114.154.164]) by mx1-lw-eu.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-lw-eu.apache.org) with ESMTPS id 23B3A5F19B for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 23:42:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from resomta-po-20v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.244]) by resqmta-po-05v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id 8DlifiP3O4VZp8DlifPaBG; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 23:42:42 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1523922162; bh=G0bMqyLjb3CIWNIoyi6JqVeKTMruxCRwPP+0SVYFs5g=; h=Received:Received:From:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:To: Message-Id; b=bVI6Yo7qwIZb4t9iPbDdUT5MpTGjyqVzBFp4Zlsy4G5up0m9sLL+KgZcjZ7Se1VXI 3R+t1aw+TFUd/yut96sYqoAfV/n06vPxiTHReXxFP6v7OsGuOxup8QNd0vCy6G05tK LIhXWAhd29ftoHctDxBa787yAh9hkf/T5yb6vFcyzhLngU5IQ9jU6qF4Th5j2qit6Q m+eP2GJbGpiXy/VJpfWjdGxfK0gOBHEujc0dwenh116NrmF/0dwj5E91KliPA4KZXw JOIaER7+kvwrDgmeP+hLb7H2kgrUz7J0ySNIbClMaoEqFzpYyfCjdRUn+fgiyjzE/Q 6vyP8N1pYowRg== Received: from [192.168.1.171] ([24.4.64.76]) by resomta-po-20v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id 8DlhfcCXk7JJA8DlifnPm2; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 23:42:42 +0000 From: Dave Fisher Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_840B4DF6-BA35-48DF-BF23-12D28086B8E8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: Challenges using Gitbox Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 16:42:40 -0700 References: <0E87976F-AA61-4193-9AD1-51AB8AE75587@dslextreme.com> <491C27E2-CC5A-4131-81D0-6C829B7CC868@dslextreme.com> <8808e29e-8e35-e3ce-fb9d-ac8af3aa0d02@gmail.com> To: general@incubator.apache.org In-Reply-To: <8808e29e-8e35-e3ce-fb9d-ac8af3aa0d02@gmail.com> Message-Id: <36D197EC-DA79-4F2F-AB54-DA77E65230ED@comcast.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGy00Yc8ugrZHCxcpZGhNigzFETMuTLfpk5w9LQxgQo36kPtuFyF5bzyXwH9TEghpUdRRi0QaXVOiehASBc0w839fHHapHUCtAB8hG38Urg3AbzLHqyZ PCBkeeMyPI+WNKvaWnYxgQpBEXA0jEf97zapSBwnw7PatL2wd75t6PMyMuKjgYj5un8YiYZZuc1O8Q== --Apple-Mail=_840B4DF6-BA35-48DF-BF23-12D28086B8E8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi - Having started on a project as such a =E2=80=9CManagement" person =E2=80=A6= . > On Apr 16, 2018, at 4:22 PM, toki wrote: >=20 > On 04/16/2018 07:37 PM, Ralph Goers wrote: >> IMO, it is inappropriate to add project managers to a project as a = committer just because they are employed by a company that has = committers who are paid to work on the project. >=20 > There are some companies who have a person whose sole duty is manage = the > employees that work on a specific open source project. >=20 > As such, open source projects have two options: > * grant the employee position the access needed to manage the project, > so that everybody can see what is going on; > * deny the employ position the needed access, and be surprised by what > the company contributes. In most instances, the surprises are things > that were neither anticipated, nor considered needed by the = non-employee > contributors; >=20 > How fast could an individual expect to be given the authority to do = this > type of project management, without contributing a line of code? It depends on the project. The place to start is by contributing to = discussions on the dev@ and/or user@ lists in order to get recognized. = If there are developers from $DayJob on the PPMC they with the rest of = the PPMC can determine when they get these people involved with rights. Apache projects require a flat, meritocracy and these PM need to earn = the right within the Project. That right then is theirs whether or not = they remain employed by $BigCo. If having commit rights on GitHub is a problem then the project can use = a Wiki (MoinMoin or Confluence) and/or an Issue Tracker (JIRA or = Bugzilla). The project should not be surprised as the developers should be = communicating about what they are developing. This is Open Source Development =E2=80=A6 do it in public and be happily = surprised when unexpected people show up with contributions. Grow a true = community. Regards, Dave >=20 > Ralph wrote: >=20 >> Companies do not do the prioritization, planning, road-mapping, > shaping product-design, etc of ASF projects. The committers and PMC > members do that. >=20 > Most of the companies that have a person whose sole duty is to manage > employees that work on a specific open source project, will ignore > upstream requests, if they don't have access to do management things > there. This will result in undesirable surprises. >=20 > If the company PM does have access at the Open Source Project level, > then the input from the other contributors will be taken into = consideration. >=20 > Yes, there is a very fine line to walk, between allowing a company > position authority to do "x", and preventing the company from taking > over the project. >=20 >> They can use their own Jira repo for that kind of stuff. >=20 > Do you really want to see a build of, say, Apache OpenOffice, with > complete L10N (Help documentation, UI, grammar checking, spell = checking > for both ancient, medieval, and modern forms of the official > language(s), and writing system(s), etc.) for say, Crimea, North = Korea, > or Syria, with no prior notice, much less discussion. I have a pretty > good idea of what ASF-Legal will say about that specific scenario. >=20 > Sure the company can just fork the project. It has happened before, = and > it will happen again. But setting up conditions where forking is the > only option for a community based project is, IMNSHO, non-viable. >=20 >> such people can earn merit by becoming involved with the community = and > helping out where they can. >=20 > In theory, that sounds good, but as a practical matter, how many = people > that have ever been on the ASF board of directors neither know/knew, = nor > use(d) any programming languages in getting there? IOW, they got there > exclusively on their ability to write documentation, do community > relations, or utilize other non-coding skills? >=20 > jonathon >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org >=20 --Apple-Mail=_840B4DF6-BA35-48DF-BF23-12D28086B8E8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE1wGSaCaYM3G/6+XhMXxt+Dx3Bc8FAlrVNPAACgkQMXxt+Dx3 Bc8HGA//SvkE8WwiYm2RFpTkFD2bROG9/F1BKhSQpfn8/pUdpvaUKgYMC3JWziAX oZSAeaqYvBmw09zV0uzvoGOPrczMfPwkC/AYSqL+jBDsTvFRjtPRWtrgQKuszuGZ 0sQZmMnUCekfMLYeVt0JncipKKfYBs15+brBr1JAHE/r0Opv/ibkZccM2jjUKEtZ cMSyyTVV9R2HfF8aGOOf9yhxTKUtmO7dlHHCNlRO/EArym5vUQsj/hO4sg/EkhXf HVMfIvkWtL3KXWQ3JIYaUBqT6RgiBqmxJi865hFPczHiWCo9Mkhy5I5ATKk+IAFm dEn6dH4i88J/9GDsDKiMfZRSozKtW4FG975HGj5rdocx3u4OyUBH8qZ0U0eDiCnq tzOyDRDxzgXpFXInAZXSgFb53opol9UsncnIXlrST1gATqgICCp0z7HhLD+ulHEO sAox1QVwmH7mVhOuTj8hkAeq8Tc858QgYnkcIfZsSfrjqobDTAHFGbMPYUABxtgR 6xLEetva3s3X0r9uYzXv01q1GLsAeP4ZTg9kpoutUwFxd30gHZ/baYHgR8rQRiM9 pc05pdHq7T3cMgVjA3enF8TrTZbhlNNSlnogPlfbO+yRGa2wJwXNRtv4P8nqF1q+ fsr4JYwbIMsAtoWGoifWi4+mLmj9l49Aq3C1QXF4RzYe4C9b1VY= =ssTN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_840B4DF6-BA35-48DF-BF23-12D28086B8E8--