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From Hen <bay...@apache.org>
Subject Re: The role of a mentor
Date Thu, 12 Apr 2018 04:07:15 GMT
I liked Julian's description too.

Yours worries me though - specifically the "but in fact they are reading
every thread, watching every process being developed, thinking through
every decision. Very occasionally (in an ideal world) they are saying
nothing".

My first concern is because that's not in the meaning of mentor. If you
think of someone you view as a mentor, they didn't spend all their time
looking over your shoulder. Instead you met with them from time to time and
discussed a topic that you were looking to find clarity on; and your mentor
successfully helped you find clarity on that. Your description sounds more
like a coach, be it sports coach or another type. Always watching, ideally
doesn't have to nudge, but does when needed. Or Roz from Monster's Inc....
"Always Watching....". I know there's no reason why the definition of
Incubator Mentor has to equal other concepts of the word, but it helps.

The second concern is on available time. If we assume that all of us are
maxed out in our available time to volunteer for an activity, mentoring a
podling means giving up a substantial existing volunteer activity. In
essence to mentor a podling you have to stop tracking the communication on
another project, which means stopping contributing to another project.
That's a heavy hit and while having coaches (my word) for every podling
would be awesome, I don't see that we have that number of volunteer with
idle cycles waiting to do something.

Which takes us full circle - if what we want are coaches, absent (burnt
out?) mentors are no surprise at all.

Hen

On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 9:35 AM, <ross@gardler.org> wrote:

> +1000
>
> I've not been very active in the incubator for some time. I've
> participated in these "role of the mentor" conversations many times over
> the years. I wish I'd been able to make my contribution as clear and
> accurate as Julian's contribution below... (applause)
>
> A good mentor *looks* like they are doing nothing, but in fact they are
> reading every thread, watching every process being developed, thinking
> through every decision. Very occasionally (in an ideal world) they are
> saying nothing.
>
> When they do choose to speak it's because something is happening that is
> in conflict with "the Apache Way". The goal is not to teach the community
> specific and rigid processes, the goal is to teach the community how to use
> the Apache Way to create communities that create software. The precise
> processes will evolve over time in a way that suits the project community.
>
> In most cases, as the podling community matures the mentor will start to
> learn improvements to their own processes. This has certainly been true in
> every single project I've mentored over the years and why I occasionally
> come back and mentor a new project. It's a learning experience, it is NOT a
> teaching experience.
>
> Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Jagielski <jim@jaguNET.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 7:32 AM
> To: general <general@incubator.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: The role of a mentor
>
> +1
>
> > On Apr 9, 2018, at 12:45 PM, Julian Hyde <jhyde@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone here taught someone how to fish? (Or how to make cookies,
> > or ski?)
> >
> > Mostly you just stand off, watching what they do. If you see them
> > about to screw up in a big way, step in. Occasionally, offer them
> > hints for how they might do what they’re doing a little bit better.
> > (Not too often, because they’ll start to resent the advice.)
> >
> > It’s a time-intensive process, and most of the time the person being
> taught thinks you’re doing nothing.
> >
> > Sometimes they ask for help, and very occasionally they ask for guidance
> (but only if you have not given them more unsolicited advice than they
> think they need, see above).
> >
> > Julian
> >
> >
> >> On Apr 9, 2018, at 5:52 AM, Liang Chen <chenliang6136@gmail.com
> <mailto:chenliang6136@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> +1, agree with JB points.
> >> Mentor mostly just focus on ASF policy and rules, then is ok.
> >> "Teach him how to fish", it is more important, so it would be better
> >> if mentors could provide some good example cases(role model) for them
> >> to learn, tell them how to find the solution from ASF website.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Liang
> >>
> >> Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote
> >>> Hi John,
> >>>
> >>> IMHO, a mentor is not necessary involved in the project
> >>> technics/codebase (it's actually a bonus).
> >>>
> >>> As a mentor, I'm focusing:
> >>> 1. Insure of the legal aspect of the project (ICLA/CCLA, SGA, ...)
> >>> 2. Help around infra and release preparation according to Apache
> >>> rules 3. Help to promote the project and build communities around 4.
> >>> See if there's potential interaction with other podlings and
> >>> existing TLPs 5. Help to go to graduation (following the graduation
> >>> checklist) 6. (optional) Help on the contribution (codebase,
> >>> website, ...)
> >>>
> >>> My $0.01
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>> JB
> >>>
> >>> On 04/03/2018 12:54 AM, John D. Ament wrote:
> >>>> I've been following along the absent mentors discussion.  But I'm
> >>>> curious, from both an IPMC member's perspective as well as a member
> >>>> of a podling, what roles do you see for a mentor?  What are their
> >>>> responsibilities to the podling?
> >>>>
> >>>> We have a few things written down, and I'm not too interested in
> >>>> rehashing the written version.  But what do podlings need from
> >>>> their mentors?
> >>>> Point
> >>>> you in a direction to run with?  Do the apache work for the
> >>>> podling?  Do we (the ASF) need mentors to ensure that podlings are
> >>>> operating within certain bounds?  Do we rely on mentors to be a
> >>>> read of the pulse of a podling?
> >>>>
> >>>> John
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> >>
> >>> jbonofre@
> >>
> >>> http://blog.nanthrax.net
> >>> Talend - http://www.talend.com
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
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