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From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 09:38:00 -0700
Message-ID: <CAJwFCa2NHxeOB4VjHwTXU8XtdzB313YEe4xaowZj1hsSv+u3dA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The state of Sirona
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
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archived-at: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 16:38:40 -0000

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Sounds totally right to me.


On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:28 AM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org>
wrote:

> I let this sit for a couple of days to see if anything changed either on
> this thread or within Sirona.  While I can see there being some concerns
> with those who are semi-active within Sirona, there's been no concrete pa=
th
> forward.
>
> So I want to propose the following, give Sirona time to identify a TLP
> sponsor to graduate into, if that doesn't work, the IPMC move unilaterall=
y
> to retire the podling, indicating that they may move development into a
> public area with the name Sirona.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> John
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 2:20 AM Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
> > Retaining trademarks isn't required, especially if they aren't attached
> to
> > strong project.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Niclas Hedhman <niclas@hedhman.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The "wrong" part (from a project's PoV) is that ASF retains
> trademarks...
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 10:56 AM, P. Taylor Goetz <ptgoetz@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 for retirement.
> > > >
> > > > There's absolutely nothing wrong with a podling returning to the
> place
> > > > from whence it came. I'm encouraged that that sentiment seems to be
> > > > proliferating among the IPMC.
> > > >
> > > > -Taylor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Apr 16, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds like consensus is coming together, then. Sound right?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Apr 16, 2017 06:03, "larry mccay" <lmccay@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hmmmm - interesting points about incubator vs github and overhea=
d.
> > > > >> I do think my statement was unclear though.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I was saying exactly the same thing about struggling podlings.
> > > > >> Much better to find out in the incubator than as a TLP that the
> > apache
> > > > way
> > > > >> isn't really going to work for them at the moment.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 7:21 AM, John D. Ament <
> > johndament@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM larry mccay <lmccay@apache.org=
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Well said.
> > > > >>>> It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently
> > > struggle
> > > > >>> as a
> > > > >>>> TLP.
> > > > >>>> This is actually a success of sorts.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :)
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>> I may be reading Ted's email differently.  Or I might be readin=
g
> > your
> > > > >>> response wrong.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Retirement isn't a failure.  Podlings are meant to be experimen=
ts
> > in
> > > > some
> > > > >>> cases.  Can I build a strong enough community, can we follow th=
e
> > > apache
> > > > >>> way.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> There's a notion that the incubator adds over head to smaller
> > > projects.
> > > > >> If
> > > > >>> you're a one-or-two developer group, who can commit one small
> > change
> > > > and
> > > > >>> cut a release in an afternoon, coming to apache with our 3 day
> > voting
> > > > >>> periods seems crazy.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> For small projects like Sirona, they may benefit from rapid
> > iterate,
> > > > >>> release, feedback cycles. This is where tooling like GitHub
> becomes
> > > > much
> > > > >>> more useful.  Once you get wikis, websites going, you can itera=
te
> > and
> > > > >> seem
> > > > >>> like a strong community.  Until you become a community of 100's
> of
> > > > users.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> We don't want to see struggling podlings graduate.  This is why
> the
> > > > >>> incubator has no time limit.  We do get worried when a podling'=
s
> > been
> > > > >> here
> > > > >>> for too long.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Basically, Sirona may see some success retiring from Apache,
> moving
> > > > >>> development to github, until they've been able to build a bigge=
r
> > > > >> community.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <
> > ted.dunning@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of
> > affairs
> > > > >> is a
> > > > >>>>> "failure".
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for
> > > > >> incubation.
> > > > >>> To
> > > > >>>>> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, no=
t
> a
> > > bug.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't
> committed
> > to
> > > > >>>> helping
> > > > >>>>> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's.
> But
> > > > >> there
> > > > >>>> are
> > > > >>>>> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can
> > really
> > > > >>>>> determine which outcome it will have.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a n=
ew
> > > > >> podling
> > > > >>>>> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a
> good
> > > TLP.
> > > > >>>>> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit
> and
> > > > >>>> sometimes
> > > > >>>>> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't
> exactly
> > > > >> know.
> > > > >>>>> There will be cases where a community will melt away and ther=
e
> > will
> > > > >> be
> > > > >>>>> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the
> Apache
> > > > >>>> license.
> > > > >>>>> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is
> time
> > to
> > > > >>>>> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any
> more.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings wh=
en
> > > there
> > > > >>> is
> > > > >>>>> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever
> > > succeed,
> > > > >>> but
> > > > >>>>> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of
> > admission.
> > > We
> > > > >>>>> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a
> > > variety
> > > > >> of
> > > > >>>>> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our
> initial
> > > > >>>>> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every
> project
> > > > >> that
> > > > >>>>> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there =
is
> > > > >> another
> > > > >>>>> successful project that we admitted even though there was
> doubt.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <
> > > > >> pierre.smits@gmail.com
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a
> community.
> > > > >>> Looking
> > > > >>>>> at
> > > > >>>>>> the various public sources, I see:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>   - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> > > > >>>>>>   - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> > > > >>>>>>   - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> > > > >>>>>>   - No description (readme) in github
> > > > >>>>>>   - No mission statement/goal description of the project on
> the
> > > > >>>>> project's
> > > > >>>>>>   home page
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest
> in
> > > the
> > > > >>>> world
> > > > >>>>>> beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time
> for
> > > > >>>>>> retirement.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Best regards,
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Pierre Smits
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > > > >>>>>> OFBiz based solutions & services
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > > > >>>>>> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofr=C3=A9 <
> > > > >>> jb@nanthrax.net
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Hi John
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on th=
e
> > > > >> table.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the
> > > > >> activity
> > > > >>>> and
> > > > >>>>>>> regarding the community around, we should really think abou=
t
> > > > >>>> retirement
> > > > >>>>>> of
> > > > >>>>>>> Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a
> "stable"
> > > > >>>> project
> > > > >>>>>>> that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see
> questions,
> > > > >>>> feature
> > > > >>>>>>> requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously
> > it's
> > > > >>> not
> > > > >>>>> the
> > > > >>>>>>> case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use
> cases
> > > > >> in
> > > > >>> a
> > > > >>>>> very
> > > > >>>>>>> limited community.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> My =E2=82=AC0.01 ;)
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Regards
> > > > >>>>>>> JB
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> > > > >>>>> johndament@apache.org
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>> All,
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IP=
MC
> > we
> > > > >>> have
> > > > >>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>>>> take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out
> what
> > > > >> to
> > > > >>> do
> > > > >>>>>>>> next.
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> - The podling has not reported in several months (this is
> > their
> > > > >>> 3rd
> > > > >>>>>>>> attempt
> > > > >>>>>>>> at monthly).
> > > > >>>>>>>> - Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little
> bit
> > of
> > > > >>>>>>>> activity
> > > > >>>>>>>> on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > > > >>>>>>>> - There is some limited project history, but no real
> > > > >> contribution
> > > > >>>> in 6
> > > > >>>>>>>> months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't wa=
nt
> > to
> > > > >>>> force
> > > > >>>>> a
> > > > >>>>>>>> project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced
> that
> > > > >>>> there's
> > > > >>>>>>>> enough of a community behind the project to sustain it goi=
ng
> > > > >>>> forward.
> > > > >>>>>>>> They've put together a limited plan to get a release out t=
he
> > > > >> door,
> > > > >>>> but
> > > > >>>>>>>> other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to
> move
> > > > >>>> forward.
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them tim=
e
> to
> > > > >>>>> regroup?
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> John
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> > > http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
> > >
> >
>

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