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From Niclas Hedhman <nic...@hedhman.org>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Drop incubating requirement of Maven artifacts
Date Sat, 07 Jan 2017 05:53:43 GMT
Pierre,
Where can I download or "consume" a project community? I would like to have
a local copy of it, right here. ;-)

Communities are living things, people, and not an immutable release
artifact. Incubation is not a release process, it is effectively an
education program for inexperienced people by experienced people, passing
the baton of collective knowledge. Sorry, but I simply fail to equate this
with the release process of "open source software for the public good", I
think the analogy is too thin.

Cheers

On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 4:42 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com> wrote:

> Nicolas, all,
>
> Despite your believes, you do release communities. Because the community is
> the incubating project. Only after the community meets the criteria of
> graduation a proposal is submitted, seconded by the IPMC and reviewed by
> the board. The community works the code during incubation until it
> consistently meets just one (small set) of the graduation criteria
> (compliance to ASF rules). But all the other aspects (community size,
> diversity and interaction) are far more important for the success, given
> the principle Community over Code.
>
> Otherwise, your suggestion to use the same standards for releasing as tlp
> (released communities) and the examples brought forward look very sound and
> acceptable.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 1:37 AM, Niclas Hedhman <niclas@hedhman.org> wrote:
>
> > Coming late to the party...
> >
> > This has been discussed, and contentious, since "forever". A long time
> ago,
> > there was a notion that a podling release was not an ASF release (which
> was
> > the main reason for the "incubating" marker in all release and support
> > artifacts. But that pendulum has swung in the opposite direction, and
> > podling releases are now expected to be at ASF TLP levels.
> >
> > Pierre pointed out that "incubating" refers to community and not code,
> but
> > we don't release a community, we release code. I think this is an
> important
> > fact.
> >
> > So, instead of tying the "incubating" marker to "incubating", I would
> favor
> > a system of marker(s) indicating the code maturity (incl legal). So, for
> a
> > podling release to be 1.2.3 (a la Groovy), the same release standard as
> > TLPs are applied, but allow "alpha", "rc" or similar markers for podlings
> > to "practice" releases. Probably not pushing those to mirrors, but
> > otherwise identical in "process" for podling to get their grips on the
> > release process.
> >
> > So, I am +1 with John's "something is broken" observation, although I
> also
> > agree with the many "-1"s that think there is value to the public here.
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 7:47 PM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I'll point out that this is a cancel thread..., I'm fine if people want
> > to
> > > continue chatting in here, but I started a new discussion on
> > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/15550f5bf622ae3070b558505c8a0f
> > > d0ce3b23df3012d57de8b6d9f3@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> > >
> > > I'll try to answer questions I saw pop up
> > >
> > > Mark Struberg: No, ignoring commons/log4j for a minute, other projects
> > > continue to work under legacy maven coordinates.  Includes one i
> already
> > > linked to - groovy, also freemarker, zest/polygene (a project that went
> > > straight to TLP).  There's neither foundation policy nor legal impact
> by
> > > using other very similar marks, especially when the project's name
> hasn't
> > > changed.  Publishing under "com.oracle.someProduct" would probably be
> bad
> > > from a marks standpoint since it shows as property of some other
> company,
> > > whereas former foundations or completely independent projects.  Plus,
> the
> > > way maven central works you own the entire tld, except for cases where
> > its
> > > a known third party publisher.  For instance, I own (personally) the
> > domain
> > > name ament.ws and have access to publish under maven coordinates
> > > ws.ament.*.  Github users have to request io.github.themselves
> > manually.  I
> > > assume that something similar exists between the ASF and Sonatype to
> > enable
> > > publishing under org.apache, and ensure that no one else can use
> > > org.apache.
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits: This is something I expected to be a hot topic.  So while
> > > 100% consensus isn't expected, a clear path forward is something to
> > expect,
> > > even if not everyone is happy about the outcome.  FWIW, there seem to
> be
> > 3
> > > different POVs (that I could identify) on those who were against the
> > idea:
> > >
> > > - Those who thought this was dropping -incubating from the Apache
> release
> > > archive.
> > > - Those who acknowledged that this was maven specific and felt it
> should
> > > continue as is.
> > > - Those who acknowledged that this was currently maven specific and
> > should
> > > be made broader.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 4:49 AM Martijn Dashorst <
> > > martijn.dashorst@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Late to the party, but having a long think about this is sometimes
> > > > beneficial.
> > > >
> > > > +1 to drop the -incubator/-incubating version attachment for any
> > > > artifacts (not just Maven).
> > > >
> > > > My reasoning is the following:
> > > >
> > > > Source code lives longer than any community. Long after a podling has
> > > > gone through the incubator, the code remains. The releases remain.
> How
> > > > a community conducts itself doesn't reflect on the released code.
> Code
> > > > just exists.
> > > >
> > > > While it is important for current users coming to a project to know
> > > > the status of the community, does it really matter if the code is in
> > > > incubation or has graduated? Does that matter in 5 years whether the
> > > > code of foo-1.2 was incubating while the community has graduated and
> > > > now resides in the attic?
> > > >
> > > > Releases have a long life. Code has a long life. We shouldn't mix
> > > > timely things like project status with long lived things like
> > > > releases. Websites are examples of timely, short lived documents and
> > > > incubation status is a (relatively) short lived state in the long
> > > > lives of projects. We shouldn't burden the long lived artifacts with
> > > > the orthogonal status of a project.
> > > >
> > > > Martijn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 6:22 PM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > All,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm calling to vote on a proposed policy change.  Current guide at
> > [1]
> > > > > indicates that maven artifacts should include incubator (or
> > incubating)
> > > > in
> > > > > the version string of maven artifacts.  Its labeled as a best
> > practice,
> > > > not
> > > > > a requirement and is not a policy followed on other repository
> > > management
> > > > > tools (e.g. PyPi).
> > > > >
> > > > > I therefore push forward that the incubator will cease expecting
> > > > java-based
> > > > > projects to publish artifacts with "-incubating" in the version
> > string,
> > > > > with the understanding that:
> > > > >
> > > > > - Incubating is a term used to refer to a project's stability, not
> a
> > > > > release's stability.  It is generally understood that incubating
> > > projects
> > > > > are not necessarily immature, but may have a potential of failing
> to
> > > > become
> > > > > a TLP.
> > > > > - Podling releases are endorsed, the podling itself is not
> endorsed.
> > > We
> > > > > will not approve releases that are blatantly against ASF policies.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [ ] +1 Drop the -incubator/-incubating expectation of maven
> projects
> > > > > [ ] +/0
> > > > > [ ] -1 Don't drop because....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [1]:
> > > > > http://incubator.apache.org/guides/release-java.html#best-
> > > practice-maven
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Become a Wicket expert, learn from the best:
> http://wicketinaction.com
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
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> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> > http://polygene.apache.org <http://zest.apache.org> - New Energy for
> Java
> >
>



-- 
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://polygene.apache.org <http://zest.apache.org> - New Energy for Java

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