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From "John D. Ament" <>
Subject Re: Omitting "-incubating" suffix in Maven artifact version attribute for FreeMarker
Date Sat, 31 Dec 2016 16:42:10 GMT
I'll point out that the link Martjin pointed to is a follow up conversation
after the vote thread that originally introduced allowing podling artifacts
to be distributed via Maven.

Now that I've seen these threads, I understand the perspective our
forefathers had when applying these restrictions.  And I'll reiterate my
concerns with it - we created a policy that applied specifically to maven
artifacts, that need not apply to other distribution mechanisms - PyPi,
NuGet, etc.  Though I'm not sure we've allowed or disallowed such a thing.

Anyways back to dissecting the thread.  Here are some interesting notes
(and commentary):

William Rowe, clarifying that an end user shouldn't have to be worried
about an incubating dependency.  Its on the distributor if it goes *poof*.
It also reiterates a point that's been stated - consumers may consider
-incubating to be a sign of stability, robustness but in actuality it's
purely an ASF term.

Here's another note, RE success of podlings.  We have 64 active podlings.
In total there have been 276 podlings, of which 44 have retired.  The
concern raised and why -incubating is used is to call out that a podling
may fail and retire.

There are 177 TLPs.  We have 41 projects in the attic, DeviceMap joining
shortly (just not listed on so that makes 42
projects in the attic.  The numbers are about on par for the likelihood of
a project failing to graduate as it is to fail as a TLP.

Niclas poses some great points, including voting no to a podling that's
clearly struggling.  Sounds like a better solution than additional

Upayavira makes a claim of something I have long wondered - what exactly do
we mean by "endorsed"?  "You need to clarify what "endorsed" means. It _is_
endorsed as "opensource", but not as "open development". "  This statement
is later followed up by notions that the ASF endorses a release when the
binding votes pass, and that we make no claims that a podling will stick
around.  This is even true of a TLP.  Though I suspect once a project has
reached a certain level of maturity, there's always someone willing to help
out.  Its even followed up with a notion from Daniel Kulp, where we may
piss off users by changing maven coordinates.


There's a few things that this seems to point out.

- We're not approving releases that are way out of line from policies and
procedures.  We call out when a podling has incorrect licensing claims, is
distributing files that shouldn't be distributed.
- A podling's release is endorsed, while the project behind that release is
not endorsed.
- Users of the podling's release

I think at this point we should start a vote on removing the -incubating
requirement on maven artifacts.  I'll wait until Monday at least to start
the vote, due to remaining holiday time.


On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 11:00 AM Raphael Bircher <>

> Hi all
> Am .12.2016, 15:40 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Dekany <>:
> > The original question in this thread is much less generic than in the
> > linked one though, so it's certainly easier to answer. Just as a
> > reminder, the specialities are these:
> >
> > - This project already have suffixless releases from before
> >   incubation, which are widely used. If the incubation fails, those
> >   versions won't be any better that the incubating ones. After all, ASF
> >   won't go around and delete those releases from the Maven Central,
> >   from, etc.
> >
> > - The project doesn't have an org.apache.* Maven groupId, nor a such
> >   Java package (in 2.x.x, because of backward compatibility, and we
> >   are talking about 2.x.x only here). So as far as I see it's quite
> >   unlikely that the user will see "Apache" without "incubating"
> >   because we have removed it from the *Maven* version number, at least
> >   if we change <name>Apache FreeMarker</name> in the POM to
> >   <name>Apache FreeMarker (incubating)</name>.
> >
> For my point of view, this would be the right solution. As I understand
> (incubating) should be added to the Project name and not to the version
> number.
> Regards, Raphael
> --
> Mein Blog:
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