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From: Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 06:53:19 +0000
Message-ID: <CADibaRwQjwdYrJDKWP+RbqWLXbjsRs+9HfZAe38bx6RYw3x4nQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Cc: members@apache.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114fa6160f94d2054100f24c
archived-at: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 06:53:37 -0000

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I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.

of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
happened" didn't mention the language.

Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
Chinese speaking people follow development?

On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org> wrote:

> Adding members@
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > English?
> >
> > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
> > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when
> it
> > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
> lower
> > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
> > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> >
> > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> exclude
> > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> native
> > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> > to Wikipedia.
> >
> > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Gunnar,
> >>
> >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
> >> real,
> >> but just
> >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
> >> China,
> >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> >>
> >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
> LABEL
> >> for such
> >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue"
> to
> >> describe like
> >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> >> others...
> >> that's not right way.
> >>
> >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> >> contributing to
> >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> >> involved
> >> in many
> >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> >>
> >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> >> mailing
> >> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
> >>
> >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> >>
> >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
> >> could check
> >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
> >>
> >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
> >> access
> >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
> >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
> >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> >> community, and try
> >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> patience
> >> for
> >> those new comers.
> >>
> >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> journey,
> >> our experience
> >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> >> challenges...through
> >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many
> >> potential projects
> >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> >>
> >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> >> Trafodion
> >> community"
> >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
> >> PMC
> >> know
> >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
> >> session recordings and
> >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> >> discussion
> >> if necessary:-)
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >> >
> >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
> from
> >> > China.
> >> >
> >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
> >> active
> >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> >> > Chinese.
> >> >
> >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not
> to
> >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions
> etc
> >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >> >
> >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
> >> China
> >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
> like
> >> > this.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Gunnar
> >> >
> >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
> >> years
> >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
> >> beyond
> >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip
> to
> >> > China.
> >> >
> >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to.
> We
> >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
> >> with
> >> > this proposal.
> >> >
> >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
> >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
> >> need
> >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
> >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need
> >> to
> >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
> >> and as
> >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
> some
> >> of
> >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
> >> project
> >> > can succeed.
> >> >
> >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> >> >
> >> > Ross
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> >> >
> >> > ________________________________
> >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> >> >
> >> > Hi John,
> >> >
> >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> constructive
> >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
> >> using
> >> > your suggestions.
> >> >
> >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> Gosling,
> >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
> >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
> history
> >> > was
> >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
> >> went
> >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
> >> gives
> >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> Indeed,
> >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
> >> git),
> >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
> >> and
> >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> >> >
> >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
> >> Bruce is
> >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
> >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> mentors,
> >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest
> in
> >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
> >> continuing
> >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> >> experience
> >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
> >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is
> an
> >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay
> for
> >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
> and
> >> > people to the ASF.
> >> >
> >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> >> suggestions
> >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
> >> Even
> >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
> >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
> >> forward.
> >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> >> mentioned
> >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
> >> code
> >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
> >> his
> >> > thoughts:
> >> >
> >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> questions
> >> > specifically:
> >> >
> >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> communities
> >> to
> >> > build cross platform clients?
> >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> >> > persistence stores?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Bruce
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com
> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> roman@shaposhnik.org
> >> >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
> >> about:
> >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >
> >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> committers
> >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
> >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> >> > suspect
> >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on
> the
> >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> >> products"
> >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
> >> with
> >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair
> of
> >> one
> >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
> >> the
> >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
> >> > their
> >> > > code base.
> >> > >
> >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> >> > >
> >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> communities
> >> > to
> >> > > build cross platform clients?
> >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> backend
> >> > > persistence stores?
> >> > >
> >> > > etc..
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > Roman.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> >> brianm@skife.org>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > +1 !
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> Cool.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> +1
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
> named
> >> > > Apache
> >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> distributed,
> >> > easy
> >> > > > to
> >> > > > >> use
> >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
> >> > amounts
> >> > > > of
> >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
> >> URL:
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
> >> 2F%
> >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
> dcff%
> >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Bruce
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > ---------
> >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> apache.org
> >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> >> org
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---------
> >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> org
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > perl -e 'print
> >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
> >> );'
> >> >
> >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> >> icrosoft.com%
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
> microsoft.com
> >> %
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
> >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
> >> 6e60c908d40597
> >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>

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