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From Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)
Date Fri, 11 Nov 2016 06:45:28 GMT
Adding members@

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org> wrote:

> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> English?
>
> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when it
> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much lower
> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>
> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also exclude
> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of native
> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 according
> to Wikipedia.
>
> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gunnar,
>>
>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
>> real,
>> but just
>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
>> China,
>> or any other territories from all of the world.
>>
>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and LABEL
>> for such
>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue" to
>> describe like
>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>> others...
>> that's not right way.
>>
>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>> contributing to
>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>> involved
>> in many
>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>>
>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>> mailing
>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
>>
>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>>
>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
>> could check
>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
>>
>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
>> access
>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>> community, and try
>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the patience
>> for
>> those new comers.
>>
>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our journey,
>> our experience
>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>> challenges...through
>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many
>> potential projects
>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>>
>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>> Trafodion
>> community"
>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
>> PMC
>> know
>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
>> session recordings and
>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>> discussion
>> if necessary:-)
>>
>>
>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>> >
>> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
>> > China.
>> >
>> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
>> active
>> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
>> > Chinese.
>> >
>> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to
>> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc
>> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>> >
>> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
>> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
>> China
>> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like
>> > this.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Gunnar
>> >
>> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
>> years
>> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
>> beyond
>> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to
>> > China.
>> >
>> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We
>> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
>> with
>> > this proposal.
>> >
>> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
>> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
>> need
>> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
>> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need
>> to
>> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
>> and as
>> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some
>> of
>> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
>> project
>> > can succeed.
>> >
>> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>> >
>> > Ross
>> >
>> > ---
>> > Twitter: @rgardler
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>> >
>> > Hi John,
>> >
>> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive
>> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
>> using
>> > your suggestions.
>> >
>> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling,
>> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
>> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history
>> > was
>> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
>> went
>> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
>> gives
>> > further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed,
>> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
>> git),
>> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
>> and
>> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>> >
>> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>> Bruce is
>> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
>> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors,
>> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in
>> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
>> continuing
>> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>> experience
>> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
>> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
>> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an
>> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
>> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for
>> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and
>> > people to the ASF.
>> >
>> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>> suggestions
>> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
>> Even
>> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
>> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>> forward.
>> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
>> mentioned
>> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
>> code
>> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
>> his
>> > thoughts:
>> >
>> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions
>> > specifically:
>> >
>> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities
>> to
>> > build cross platform clients?
>> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
>> > persistence stores?
>> >
>> >
>> > Bruce
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <roman@shaposhnik.org
>> >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
>> about:
>> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
>> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>> > > >
>> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
>> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
>> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
>> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
>> > > >
>> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
>> > suspect
>> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
>> > > product and it was kept internal.
>> > >
>> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
>> products"
>> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
>> with
>> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of
>> one
>> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
>> the
>> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
>> > their
>> > > code base.
>> > >
>> > > Some other ways to address this section:
>> > >
>> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> communities
>> > to
>> > > build cross platform clients?
>> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
>> > > persistence stores?
>> > >
>> > > etc..
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks,
>> > > > Roman.
>> > > >
>> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>> brianm@skife.org>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > > +1 !
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> Cool.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> +1
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
named
>> > > Apache
>> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
>> > easy
>> > > > to
>> > > > >> use
>> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing
large
>> > amounts
>> > > > of
>> > > > >> > streaming data.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
>> URL:
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>> 2F%
>> > 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Thanks,
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Bruce
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > ---------
>> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
>> org
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > perl -e 'print
>> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
>> );'
>> >
>> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>> icrosoft.com%
>> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com
>> %
>> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
>> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
>> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
>> 6e60c908d40597
>> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>> >
>>
>
>

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