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From Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)
Date Fri, 11 Nov 2016 18:45:30 GMT
Regardless of the language being used, keeping discussions on-list can
be hard work. In practice it requires the core members of the
community to doggedly refuse to answer questions that are not asked in
the correct forum.

I can see how that doggedness might be perceived as rudeness. Total
speculation here (and apologies if I offend by making cultural
generalizations) but are some cultures less inclined to be "rude" and
force discussions onto lists?

By the way, I'll offer a data point that contradicts my hypothesis: I
mentored Apache Kylin, the majority of whose committers are in China,
and which has a large community in China, and I saw numerous occasions
where committers replied to emails written in Chinese and asked the
sender to use English.

Julian

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com> wrote:
> A few things...
>
> 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates outside
> of "everything happens on mailing lists."
> 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those
> communities.
> 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to encourage
> this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide community
> since they are a huge source of potential committers.
> 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English
> translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.
>
> So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.
>
> Gunnar
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@savoirtech.com>
> wrote:
>
>> and you got your answer…. what changes?
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
>> question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
>> Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
>> part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions
>> expressed by individuals.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Gunnar
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
>> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
>> > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it
>> is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
>> Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
>> are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
>> users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
>> >
>> > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
>> reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose
>> country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
>> >
>> > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as
>> I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
>> statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
>> argument was most *definitely* defensible.
>> >
>> > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say
>> that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to
>> use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that
>> the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
>> >
>> > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on
>> ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such
>> as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are
>> in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
>> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
>> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
>> define on who your want your audience to be.
>> >
>> > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance”
>> because our main language is an international one.  But it’s not going to
>> change your situation or position.
>> >
>> > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice,
>> then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.
>> What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
>> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
>> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
>> attempting to answer you.
>> >
>> > Jeff
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
>> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:
>> jgenender@apache.org>>> wrote:
>> > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
>> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
>> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
>> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
>> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
>> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
>> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
>> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
>> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
>> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>> > >
>> > > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
>> doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
>> This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
>> when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
>> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
>> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
>> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
>> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>> > >
>> > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
>> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
>> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
>> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
>> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
>> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
>> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
>> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
>> interested in why.
>> > >
>> > > Just my usual .02.
>> > >
>> > > Jeff
>> > >
>> > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:
>> tom@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk>>>
>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
>> about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
>> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
>> > > >
>> > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
>> never happened" didn't mention the language.
>> > > >
>> > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
>> non Chinese speaking people follow development?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>>> wrote:
>> > > > Adding members@
>> > > >
>> > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>> > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or
put
>> it
>> > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must
be
>> in
>> > > > > English?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English,
as
>> English
>> > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
>> software
>> > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
>> when it
>> > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China
is
>> much lower
>> > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>> English
>> > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will
also
>> exclude
>> > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
>> of native
>> > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to
1
>> according
>> > > > > to Wikipedia.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
>> countries,
>> > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>> > > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Gunnar
>> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

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