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From "John D. Ament" <johndam...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Incoming Website Changes
Date Wed, 30 Nov 2016 02:49:19 GMT
So personally I think its great to get input from current podlings on a
subject like this.

I've made some proposed changes on a separate thread, but I almost think
between your comments and Roman's comments... should we just drop the
current "policy" document and make the guides the policy documents?  There
shouldn't be opinions on what makes a functioning podling, it should be
pretty cut and dry:

- public discussions
- apache licensed code
- made successful releases without issues
- using ASF infra resources

On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 4:17 PM Jim Apple <jbapple@cloudera.com> wrote:

> One way to make The Guide clearer is to make The Policy more accurate.
> As it is, The Policy is contradicted in various other places on the
> lists or in the guide or in practice, so as a person who is trying to
> understand what incubation and graduation are really like, The Policy
> doesn't read as "The Policy" but as a single unreliable source in a
> tangled web of practice and theory that includes The Guide.
>
> Consider this single snippet from The Policy:
>
> "Release plans are developed and excuted[sic] in public by the community.
> (requirement on minimum number of such releases?)
> Note: incubator projects are not permitted to issue an official
> Release. Test snapshots (however good the quality) and Release plans
> are OK.
> Engagement by the incubated community with the other ASF communities,
> particularly infrastructure@ (this reflects my personal bias that
> projects should pay an nfrastructure[sic] "tax")."
>
> Line 2 is a question. Who wrote it? What is the answer? Why is there
> an embedded question in The Policy at all?
>
> Line 3 seems contrary to actual practice.
>
> Line 4 includes "my personal bias". Whose bias is that? Is that bias
> now policy, or is it still just a personal opinion?
>
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:35 PM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM Roman Shaposhnik <roman@shaposhnik.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 6:16 AM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 6:04 PM Greg Stein <gstein@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:06 PM, John D. Ament <
> johndament@apache.org>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gstein@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <
> >> johndament@apache.org>
> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > > >...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > Graduation Guide
> >> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow
for
> >> >> graduation.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation
> >> step.
> >> >> > I'm
> >> >> > > not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has
said
> >> that it
> >> >> > can
> >> >> > > be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I argued myself into adding this one.  While I don't disagree
with
> >> your
> >> >> > perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from board
> >> >> > members.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Some Directors != The Board
> >> >>
> >> >> The Board has never required the IPMC to use the APMM as a
> requirement
> >> for
> >> >> graduation. And, I don't recall the IPMC making that requirement
> either.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >   The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow it
> >> >> > applies to podlings planning to graduate.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Says who?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a guide,
> not a
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> On graduation.html, you list "Complete the Apache Project Maturity
> >> Model"
> >> >> as one of the preparation steps. That does not sound like a guide.
> >> >>
> >> >> policy.  So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding
a
> >> link.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> By listing it like that on the graduation page, it is de facto
> policy.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings
> actions
> >> and
> >> >> > behaviors against the maturity model.  I could also see it moving
> into
> >> >> the
> >> >> > "Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist
> section.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thoughts?
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Personally, I'd be fine with the link under "Other Issues". Something
> >> like
> >> >> "You may find the APMM a useful guide, to look at different factors
> in
> >> your
> >> >> podling's community."  (<waves-hand> on phrasing)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > I think at this point, we're just arguing semantics.  I've drafted the
> >> > following for the other issues section.  I've removed it from the
> >> checklist
> >> > section.
> >>
> >> The feedback I consistently get from all the podlings I mentor is that
> >> it would be really great if our documentation clearly separated policy
> >> from advice. In fact, having two separate documents is what they
> >> all seem to have in mind. Today we have guides which are pretty verbose
> >> and mix the two.
> >>
> >
> > I've gotten the same type of questions.  The problem is that this line
> > already exists in the graduation "guide"
> >
> > This is just a guide. Policy is stated here. (where here is a link to the
> > actual policy document)
> >
> > Anyway you can think to make it clearer?
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Roman.
> >>
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> >>
> >>
>
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>

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