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From Luke Han <luke...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)
Date Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:48:09 GMT
> As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means
> to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
So, I
> choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
that
> others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that was
> the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than shut
it > down with a "use our mailing lists only."

And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or Users?
That's totally different arguments.

Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some ideas for
you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing list
and
asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese too) had
tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again. And we
tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And we
have a
simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter which Language
of the question.
Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs should
keep discussion in mailing list, in English.  And then to influent others
who
want to participate, contribute and use this open source project.

Why English?
It's only way to cross board for global adoption.


On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to learn
and
try new technology with their native language so that they could understand
quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good enough
at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is the
right
thing they should to do to get help.

For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native
language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then developers.
We
shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually nothing
we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very active who
are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try to
leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question there
but
will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to mailing
list
because they already could help each other.

Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in China.
For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people and
more in QQ groups.

One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular Hadoop
WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product, something
like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one of such
accounts...

Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?

Why Chinese?
To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter where's
project coming from.





Best Regards!
---------------------

Luke Han

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other lists? I
> was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and to get
> help. The support side if you will.
>
> As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means to
> communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it. So, I
> choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that
> was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than shut
> it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
>
> As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users aren't
> comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help identify
> what would work for those users.
>
> I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> discussion thread on that topic.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
>> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
>> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
>> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
>> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
>> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
>> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
>> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
>> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
>> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>>
>> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
>> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
>> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when
>> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
>> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
>> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
>> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
>> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>>
>> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
>> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
>> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
>> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
>> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
>> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
>> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
>> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
>> interested in why.
>>
>> Just my usual .02.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
>> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
>> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
>> >
>> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
>> happened" didn't mention the language.
>> >
>> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
>> Chinese speaking people follow development?
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
>> > Adding members@
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
>> > > English?
>> > >
>> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>> English
>> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
>> when it
>> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
>> lower
>> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>> English
>> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>> > >
>> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>> exclude
>> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
>> native
>> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>> according
>> > > to Wikipedia.
>> > >
>> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org
>> <mailto:lukehan@apache.org>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Hi Gunnar,
>> > >>
>> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
>> > >> real,
>> > >> but just
>> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
>> from
>> > >> China,
>> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
>> > >>
>> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
>> LABEL
>> > >> for such
>> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
>> "issue" to
>> > >> describe like
>> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>> > >> others...
>> > >> that's not right way.
>> > >>
>> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>> > >> contributing to
>> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>> > >> involved
>> > >> in many
>> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>> > >>
>> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>> > >> mailing
>> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/>
[1]:
>> > >>
>> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>> > >>
>> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects,
>> you
>> > >> could check
>> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
>> list.
>> > >>
>> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way
>> to
>> > >> access
>> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
>> speakers,
>> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
>> Way.
>> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>> > >> community, and try
>> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
>> patience
>> > >> for
>> > >> those new comers.
>> > >>
>> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
>> journey,
>> > >> our experience
>> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>> > >> challenges...through
>> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
>> many
>> > >> potential projects
>> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>> > >>
>> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>> > >> Trafodion
>> > >> community"
>> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
>> Trafodion
>> > >> PMC
>> > >> know
>> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
>> articles,
>> > >> session recordings and
>> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>> > >> discussion
>> > >> if necessary:-)
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>  <
>> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
>> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > Hi,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
>> from
>> > >> > China.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't
that
>> > >> active
>> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating
in
>> > >> > Chinese.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard
>> not to
>> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
>> questions etc
>> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
>> forward,
>> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members
>> in
>> > >> China
>> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication
>> issues like
>> > >> > this.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Thanks,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Gunnar
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>>
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple
of
>> > >> years
>> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
>> source
>> > >> beyond
>> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
>> trip to
>> > >> > China.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked
>> to. We
>> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
>> involved
>> > >> with
>> > >> > this proposal.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project
>> and
>> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation.
We
>> will
>> > >> need
>> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China
>> born
>> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that
we
>> need
>> > >> to
>> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
>> foundation
>> > >> and as
>> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having
met
>> some
>> > >> of
>> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors
the
>> > >> project
>> > >> > can succeed.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Ross
>> > >> >
>> > >> > ---
>> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
>> > >> >
>> > >> > ________________________________
>> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:
>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>
>> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general@incubator.apac
>> he.org>
>> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Hi John,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
>> constructive
>> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
>> project
>> > >> using
>> > >> > your suggestions.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
>> Gosling,
>> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the
>> Github
>> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
>> history
>> > >> > was
>> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
>> git-fu
>> > >> went
>> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von
>> also
>> > >> gives
>> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
>> Indeed,
>> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before
>> with
>> > >> git),
>> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
>> improve
>> > >> and
>> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>> > >> Bruce is
>> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
>> exist
>> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
>> mentors,
>> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
>> interest in
>> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest
in
>> > >> continuing
>> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>> > >> experience
>> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
>> over
>> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a
>> community of
>> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The
ASF
>> is an
>> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from
new
>> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and
>> stay for
>> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
>> project and
>> > >> > people to the ASF.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>> > >> suggestions
>> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
>> proposal.
>> > >> Even
>> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also
be
>> great
>> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>> > >> forward.
>> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects
you
>> > >> mentioned
>> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
>> RocketMQ
>> > >> code
>> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John
>> with
>> > >> his
>> > >> > thoughts:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
>> questions
>> > >> > specifically:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> communities
>> > >> to
>> > >> > build cross platform clients?
>> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>> backend
>> > >> > persistence stores?
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Bruce
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
>> john.d.ament@gmail.com <mailto:john.d.ament@gmail.com>>
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
>> roman@shaposhnik.org <mailto:roman@shaposhnik.org>
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > wrote:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
concerned
>> > >> about:
>> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
<
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
>> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com
<
>> http://40microsoft.com/>%
>> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge
blobs
>> of
>> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
>> committers
>> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend
a lot of
>> time
>> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
>> prevails.
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as
well.
>> I
>> > >> > suspect
>> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development
>> on the
>> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other
apache
>> > >> products"
>> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
>> competes
>> > >> with
>> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is
the
>> chair of
>> > >> one
>> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies
>> with
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
>> today in
>> > >> > their
>> > >> > > code base.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> > >> communities
>> > >> > to
>> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
>> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
as
>> backend
>> > >> > > persistence stores?
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > etc..
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > Thanks,
>> > >> > > > Roman.
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>> > >> brianm@skife.org <mailto:brianm@skife.org>>
>> > >> > > > wrote:
>> > >> > > > > +1 !
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
>> jim@jagunet.com <mailto:jim@jagunet.com>>
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > >> Cool.
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >> +1
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder
<
>> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>
>> > >> > > > wrote:
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new
Incubator podling
>> named
>> > >> > > Apache
>> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable,
scalable,
>> distributed,
>> > >> > easy
>> > >> > > > to
>> > >> > > > >> use
>> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially
for processing
>> large
>> > >> > amounts
>> > >> > > > of
>> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the
wiki at the
>> following
>> > >> URL:
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect
>> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <https://na01.safelinks.protec
>> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>
>> > >> 2F%
>> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>%2F
>> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd1
>> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
>> 036&sdata=
>> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal
below.
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------
>> ------------------------------
>> > >> > ---------
>> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
>> apache.org <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org>
>> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> general-help@incubator.apache.
>> > >> org
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >> ---------
>> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
>> apache.org <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org>
>> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>> general-help@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-help@incubator
>> .apache.org>
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > --
>> > >> > perl -e 'print
>> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
>> "YC;VT*"
>> > >> );'
>> > >> >
>> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect
>> ion.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protec
>> tion.outlook.com/?url=>
>> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/>%
>> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
>> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
>> crosoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>
>> > >> %
>> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks
<
>> https://na01.safelinks/>.
>> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
<
>> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>
>> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
>> http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd12890186efe4c
>> > >> 6e60c908d40597
>> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
>> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd1
>> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
>> 036&sdata=
>> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>

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