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From Woonsan Ko <woon...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.
Date Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:47:00 GMT
On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language automatically: In
> practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion is
> specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century.
>
> Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk är
> inte längre ett hinder.
>
> Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one)
> operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages they
> don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty
> awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an
> example.
>
> So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the past as
> people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday life.
> Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days -- the
> translate function is extremely cool.
>
> You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use
> technology to remove the barrier.
>
> Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main
> project page that discusses communication in different languages
> encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not
> comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no interaction.
>
> I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed and
> that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate back
> as needed. A smalll first step but an important one.

I guess you mean that in the user@ lists. That should be fine in my
understanding from the discussions here and there.
But as Shane and others pointed out, dev@ lists should be using
English or Globish-like for good reasons. I would encourage committers
to do so.

Just my two cents,

Woonsan

>
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <elecharny@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de
>> diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème siècle.
>>
>>
>> And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which
>> is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess you
>> get my implicit point ;-)
>>
>>
>> More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english :
>> many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we
>> do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame
>> anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java,
>> Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face
>> english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take
>> the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ?
>>
>>
>> But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty
>> hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a
>> language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split
>> community, way harder than using a very basic english...
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit :
>> > Adding members@
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>> >> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>> >> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
>> >> English?
>> >>
>> >> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>> English
>> >> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>> >> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when
>> it
>> >> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
>> lower
>> >> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>> English
>> >> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>> >>
>> >> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>> exclude
>> >> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
>> native
>> >> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>> according
>> >> to Wikipedia.
>> >>
>> >> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>> >> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi Gunnar,
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
>> >>> real,
>> >>> but just
>> >>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
>> >>> China,
>> >>> or any other territories from all of the world.
>> >>>
>> >>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
>> LABEL
>> >>> for such
>> >>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
>> "issue" to
>> >>> describe like
>> >>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>> >>> others...
>> >>> that's not right way.
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>> >>> contributing to
>> >>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>> >>> involved
>> >>> in many
>> >>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>> >>>
>> >>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>> >>> mailing
>> >>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
>> >>>
>> >>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>> >>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>> >>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>> >>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>> >>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>> >>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>> >>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>> >>>
>> >>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
>> >>> could check
>> >>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
>> >>>
>> >>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way
to
>> >>> access
>> >>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
>> speakers,
>> >>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
>> Way.
>> >>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>> >>> community, and try
>> >>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
>> patience
>> >>> for
>> >>> those new comers.
>> >>>
>> >>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
>> journey,
>> >>> our experience
>> >>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>> >>> challenges...through
>> >>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
>> many
>> >>> potential projects
>> >>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>> >>>
>> >>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>> >>> Trafodion
>> >>> community"
>> >>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
>> >>> PMC
>> >>> know
>> >>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
>> >>> session recordings and
>> >>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>> >>> discussion
>> >>> if necessary:-)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
>> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hi,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
>> from
>> >>>> China.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
>> >>> active
>> >>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating
in
>> >>>> Chinese.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard
not
>> to
>> >>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions
>> etc
>> >>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
>> >>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members
in
>> >>> China
>> >>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
>> like
>> >>>> this.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Gunnar
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple
of
>> >>> years
>> >>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
>> >>> beyond
>> >>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
trip
>> to
>> >>>> China.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked
to.
>> We
>> >>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
>> >>> with
>> >>>> this proposal.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project
and
>> >>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We
will
>> >>> need
>> >>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China
born
>> >>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we
need
>> >>> to
>> >>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
>> >>> and as
>> >>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
>> some
>> >>> of
>> >>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
>> >>> project
>> >>>> can succeed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ross
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ---
>> >>>> Twitter: @rgardler
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ________________________________
>> >>>> From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>> >>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi John,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
>> constructive
>> >>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
>> >>> using
>> >>>> your suggestions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
>> Gosling,
>> >>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
>> >>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
>> history
>> >>>> was
>> >>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
>> >>> went
>> >>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von
also
>> >>> gives
>> >>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below.
>> Indeed,
>> >>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before
with
>> >>> git),
>> >>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
>> >>> and
>> >>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>> >>> Bruce is
>> >>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
exist
>> >>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
>> mentors,
>> >>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest
>> in
>> >>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
>> >>> continuing
>> >>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>> >>> experience
>> >>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
over
>> >>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>> >>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a community
of
>> >>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF
is
>> an
>> >>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
>> >>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and
stay
>> for
>> >>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
>> and
>> >>>> people to the ASF.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>> >>> suggestions
>> >>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
>> >>> Even
>> >>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be
great
>> >>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>> >>> forward.
>> >>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
>> >>> mentioned
>> >>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
>> >>> code
>> >>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John
with
>> >>> his
>> >>>> thoughts:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
>> questions
>> >>>> specifically:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> communities
>> >>> to
>> >>>> build cross platform clients?
>> >>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
>> >>>> persistence stores?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bruce
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com
>> >
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
>> roman@shaposhnik.org
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
>> >>> about:
>> >>>>>>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>> >>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>> >>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge
blobs of
>> >>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
committers
>> >>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot
of time
>> >>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
prevails.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>> >>>>>>    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>> >>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.
 I
>> >>>> suspect
>> >>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development
on the
>> >>>>> product and it was kept internal.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
>> >>> products"
>> >>>>> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
>> >>> with
>> >>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the
chair of
>> >>> one
>> >>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies
with
>> >>> the
>> >>>>> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
today in
>> >>>> their
>> >>>>> code base.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Some other ways to address this section:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> >>> communities
>> >>>> to
>> >>>>> build cross platform clients?
>> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
as
>> backend
>> >>>>> persistence stores?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> etc..
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>> Roman.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>> >>> brianm@skife.org>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> +1 !
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> Cool.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> +1
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
>> >>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator
podling named
>> >>>>> Apache
>> >>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
distributed,
>> >>>> easy
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> use
>> >>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially for
processing large
>> >>>> amounts
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>> streaming data.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki
at the following
>> >>> URL:
>> >>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>> >>> 2F%
>> >>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>> >>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
>> dcff%
>> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> >>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal
below.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Bruce
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> ---------
>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
>> >>> org
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> ---------
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> perl -e 'print
>> >>>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
>> >>> );'
>> >>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
>> protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>> >>> icrosoft.com%
>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>> >>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
>> microsoft.com
>> >>> %
>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>> >>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
>> >>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
>> >>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
>> >>> 6e60c908d40597
>> >>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> >>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> >>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>> >>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>> >>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> >>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>>
>> >>
>>
>> --
>> Emmanuel Lecharny
>>
>> Symas.com
>> directory.apache.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

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