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From Jim Apple <jbap...@cloudera.com>
Subject Re: Incoming Website Changes
Date Wed, 30 Nov 2016 04:08:41 GMT
I would be delighted if the answer became cut and dry, modulo the fact
that if the cut-and-dry document became a laundry list for everyone's
favorite thing, that could move the goalposts pretty far for existing
podlings.

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 6:49 PM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org> wrote:
> So personally I think its great to get input from current podlings on a
> subject like this.
>
> I've made some proposed changes on a separate thread, but I almost think
> between your comments and Roman's comments... should we just drop the
> current "policy" document and make the guides the policy documents?  There
> shouldn't be opinions on what makes a functioning podling, it should be
> pretty cut and dry:
>
> - public discussions
> - apache licensed code
> - made successful releases without issues
> - using ASF infra resources
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 4:17 PM Jim Apple <jbapple@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
>> One way to make The Guide clearer is to make The Policy more accurate.
>> As it is, The Policy is contradicted in various other places on the
>> lists or in the guide or in practice, so as a person who is trying to
>> understand what incubation and graduation are really like, The Policy
>> doesn't read as "The Policy" but as a single unreliable source in a
>> tangled web of practice and theory that includes The Guide.
>>
>> Consider this single snippet from The Policy:
>>
>> "Release plans are developed and excuted[sic] in public by the community.
>> (requirement on minimum number of such releases?)
>> Note: incubator projects are not permitted to issue an official
>> Release. Test snapshots (however good the quality) and Release plans
>> are OK.
>> Engagement by the incubated community with the other ASF communities,
>> particularly infrastructure@ (this reflects my personal bias that
>> projects should pay an nfrastructure[sic] "tax")."
>>
>> Line 2 is a question. Who wrote it? What is the answer? Why is there
>> an embedded question in The Policy at all?
>>
>> Line 3 seems contrary to actual practice.
>>
>> Line 4 includes "my personal bias". Whose bias is that? Is that bias
>> now policy, or is it still just a personal opinion?
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:35 PM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM Roman Shaposhnik <roman@shaposhnik.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 6:16 AM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 6:04 PM Greg Stein <gstein@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:06 PM, John D. Ament <
>> johndament@apache.org>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gstein@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament <
>> >> johndament@apache.org>
>> >> >> > > wrote:
>> >> >> > > >...
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > > Graduation Guide
>> >> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > > > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to
follow for
>> >> >> graduation.
>> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > There has been past controversy on including that as
a graduation
>> >> step.
>> >> >> > I'm
>> >> >> > > not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion
has said
>> >> that it
>> >> >> > can
>> >> >> > > be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I argued myself into adding this one.  While I don't disagree
with
>> >> your
>> >> >> > perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from
board
>> >> >> > members.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Some Directors != The Board
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Board has never required the IPMC to use the APMM as a
>> requirement
>> >> for
>> >> >> graduation. And, I don't recall the IPMC making that requirement
>> either.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >   The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow
it
>> >> >> > applies to podlings planning to graduate.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Says who?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a
guide,
>> not a
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On graduation.html, you list "Complete the Apache Project Maturity
>> >> Model"
>> >> >> as one of the preparation steps. That does not sound like a guide.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> policy.  So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding
a
>> >> link.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> By listing it like that on the graduation page, it is de facto
>> policy.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings
>> actions
>> >> and
>> >> >> > behaviors against the maturity model.  I could also see it
moving
>> into
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> > "Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist
>> section.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Thoughts?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Personally, I'd be fine with the link under "Other Issues". Something
>> >> like
>> >> >> "You may find the APMM a useful guide, to look at different factors
>> in
>> >> your
>> >> >> podling's community."  (<waves-hand> on phrasing)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > I think at this point, we're just arguing semantics.  I've drafted
the
>> >> > following for the other issues section.  I've removed it from the
>> >> checklist
>> >> > section.
>> >>
>> >> The feedback I consistently get from all the podlings I mentor is that
>> >> it would be really great if our documentation clearly separated policy
>> >> from advice. In fact, having two separate documents is what they
>> >> all seem to have in mind. Today we have guides which are pretty verbose
>> >> and mix the two.
>> >>
>> >
>> > I've gotten the same type of questions.  The problem is that this line
>> > already exists in the graduation "guide"
>> >
>> > This is just a guide. Policy is stated here. (where here is a link to the
>> > actual policy document)
>> >
>> > Anyway you can think to make it clearer?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Roman.
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >>
>>
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>>

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