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From Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)
Date Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:19:02 GMT
Hi,

I don't have any solutions, hence the discussion. If people show up on the
mailing lists, you see them and can do whatever makes sense. That's not the
issue.

Like Ted, I believe the friendly approach is the way to go. We're using
China as an example due to scale but I've seen language-specific user
groups in every endeavour through my career. I've presented in my native
language (Swedish) to Scandinavians as well as in English all over.
Sometimes, people in the audience have translated. Point is, you figure it
out if there's a will. Now, it's a lot simpler because of the translation
technology so I'd error on the side of inclusion whenever possible.

Anyway, I intend to work with the Chinese folks that interact with the
Tafodion project in English to figure out how we can bridge language
barriers better. Hopefully, we'll figure something out that can be reused
by other projects down the line. If not, at least we tried.

BTW, the QQ group I'm referring to is named "Geode/Trafodion Elite Group"
(group ID 176011868) from what I'm being told. Can't beat that. :)

Thanks,

Gunnar



On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com> wrote:

> I actually take a different tack on that.
>
> I answer questions everywhere and provide a pointer for other fora for
> followups. It gives a friendlier feeling, improves searchability and still
> encourages the mailing lists.
>
> My experience is that simply not answering and pushing the OP to the lists
> has a low success rate.
>
> Another approach is to post the answer on the mailing lists and put a link
> to that thread  on the non-Apache site. That's a bit friendlier, but I
> don't think it is as good.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@savoirtech.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I’m not sure that changes anything… that has been the nature of this
> since
> > the beginning.
> >
> > For Apache… most happens on the mailing lists for very obvious reasons.
> > Doing things outside tand not bringing them to the lists is frowned upon
> > because it leaves the rest of the community in the dark.
> >
> > You see the challenges… they were explicitly discussed in this thread.
> > English is unfortunately/fortunately the adaptor of communication to the
> > world.  Thats not “western arrogance”.  Its a fact.  Someone has to be
> the
> > mediator and english it is.
> >
> > If a community wants to extend across borders and get more non-localized
> > input, then english will likely be the need.  If a project/PMC does not,
> > care, then utilize your language de-jour with the understanding of the
> > consequences.
> >
> > I don’t really see a solution beyond that.  I guess if you have an area
> > where the devs discuss in another language and someone wants to translate
> > it to english and bring it to the lists so others can be a part of it, I
> > assume that would work.  But that seems like a lot of work to me.  Do you
> > have a better solution?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > A few things...
> > >
> > > 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates
> > outside of "everything happens on mailing lists."
> > > 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those
> > communities.
> > > 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to
> > encourage this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide
> > community since they are a huge source of potential committers.
> > > 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English
> > translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.
> > >
> > > So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <
> > jgenender@savoirtech.com <mailto:jgenender@savoirtech.com>> wrote:
> > > and you got your answer…. what changes?
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com
> > <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
> > question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
> > Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
> > part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for
> opinions
> > expressed by individuals.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Gunnar
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
> > <mailto:jgenender@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:
> > jgenender@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> <mailto:
> > rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>>
> wrote:
> > > > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users,
as
> > it is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
> > Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
> > are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
> > users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
> > > >
> > > > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
> > reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about
> whose
> > country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
> > > >
> > > > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said,
> > as I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
> > statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
> > argument was most *definitely* defensible.
> > > >
> > > > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did*
> say
> > that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to
> > use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that
> > the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
> > > >
> > > > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on
> > ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF
> such
> > as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions
> are
> > in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on
> your
> > tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But
> there
> > are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
> > define on who your want your audience to be.
> > > >
> > > > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western
> > “arrogance” because our main language is an international one.  But it’s
> > not going to change your situation or position.
> > > >
> > > > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice,
> > then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to
> hear.
> > What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of
> the
> > members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?
> If
> > this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
> > attempting to answer you.
> > > >
> > > > Jeff
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <
> > jgenender@apache.org <mailto:jgenender@apache.org> <mailto:
> > jgenender@apache.org <mailto:jgenender@apache.org>> <mailto:
> > jgenender@apache.org <mailto:jgenender@apache.org> <mailto:
> > jgenender@apache.org <mailto:jgenender@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> > international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> > it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> > you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> borders
> > or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell
> you
> > that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> > problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> > Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> > from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you
> want
> > your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > > > >
> > > > > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> > doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
> > This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the
> project
> > when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses
> any
> > problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
> > unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC
> or,
> > the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> > insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> > > > >
> > > > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down
a
> > language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> > that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> > would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> > don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
> > you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I
> think
> > that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> > Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> > interested in why.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just my usual .02.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeff
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk
> > <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:
> > tom@spicule.co.uk>> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk>
> > <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> > about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay
> but
> > obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list
it
> > never happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how
> > would non Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> > rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org>
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>> <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> >>>>>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > Adding members@
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> >>
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org>
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>> <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> >>>>>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects
that
> > consist
> > > > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese?
Or
> > put it
> > > > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications
must
> > be in
> > > > > > > English?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English,
> > as English
> > > > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> > software
> > > > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of
> > proficiency when it
> > > > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in
China
> is
> > much lower
> > > > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers
to
> > learn English
> > > > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English
will
> > also exclude
> > > > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the
> number
> > of native
> > > > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English
3 to
> 1
> > according
> > > > > > > to Wikipedia.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> > countries,
> > > > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Gunnar
> > > > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
> >
> >
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

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