incubator-general mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)
Date Mon, 14 Nov 2016 01:03:37 GMT
Hi Jeff,

I guess you misunderstood what I am raising for discussion. I'm not arguing
against e-mail lists. I prefer them or we'd not have this discussion,
right? As a matter of fact, my projects at my previous employer adopted an
"everything happens on e-mail" to deal with timezone differences and hive
mind building. So, no need to convince me on the benefit of the technology
and why.

What I AM pointing to is that I'm experiencing groups that aren't
comfortable with interacting using e-mail quoting language and slowness as
barriers. Let's accept that as a fact for the sake of discussion. Do we
ignore that class of community because they're not operating the right way
or do we find ways to interact/lower barriers/whatever makes sense?

Again, this is a generic discussion, not a project-specific discussion.

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org> wrote:

>
> > On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing
> lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn
> how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even include
> statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community
> building.
> >
>
> Gunnar, I’m going to give you a big -1 to this.
>
> Unless you can come up with a better global way to A) communicate across a
> medium that everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to, I am
> in full disagreement.  Since I have been with Apache (about 14 years), I
> have yet to find a better medium than the lists, and its always been a
> known fact that ultimately, any non-mail list discussions that result in
> some form of a decision are brought to the mail lists for global discussion.
>
> Our mail lists are indexed by Google and others.  Its easy to find what
> one looks for.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> > The struggle I'm referring is that we're seeing a reluctance to
> participate in the main Apache communication methods: email. Clearly, we
> can try to get statistics from the different forums you and I have
> mentioned but that's really just collecting data points.
> >
> > How can you help? Well, how to we get more people from China (or other
> companies) to engage with the mailing lists or vice versa? I'm imagining
> jumping on the QQ group and must admit to be very apprehensive on doing so.
> It's not an easy thing to get over.
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 7:16 AM, Luke Han <luke.hq@gmail.com <mailto:
> luke.hq@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > Hi Gunnar,
> >
> > > Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when
> there's
> > > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > > invisible to the rest of us.
> >
> >      I think maybe I'm not bring message so clearly, let me try again:
> >      Such account is not a GROUP, it's something like twitter account
> which
> > has 20k followers where the author sharing experiences, samples and
> > anything else...to help to educate users, help to grow up local
> > communities. I have to say, such account helped a lot for ASF projects'
> > adoption in China. Back to QQ group, something like Google Group which
> > everybody could create in seconds.
> >
> >      Is that Trafodion QQ group created and managed by Trafodion PMC or
> > someone else? Did your PMCs make decision over there, or just users who
> > asking questions over there? If "it's invisible to the rest of us" means
> > decision has been made by your PMCs in QQ group but not in mailing
> > list...that's really problem and you have to raise to PPMC/IPMC.
> >
> >      But if it's about user group, there are many local communities
> > everywhere for sure using different languages, in Chinese, in Spanish, in
> > Japanese...could we know everything from there? For example, did Hadoop
> > report include activities from Hortonworks/Cloudera hosted forum, twitter
> > accounts or Facebook pages "like" number or any other online
> forums/groups?
> > They are really user communities too.
> >
> >       I just shared my experience with you in last reply about how we
> > handle that...hope it could help you to understand what you could do. And
> > also brought some facts how user communities formed, operated and what we
> > have did. And brought some data from different Apache projects, obviously
> > it's not "an Apache-wide issue that needs to be addressed".
> >
> >       I'm not argue with you about "Which language is better" or "mailing
> > list vs QQ/Google Group", I just want to help you to figure the root
> cause
> > of your original "struggle" problem.
> >
> >       But I'm not very agree with you raised such discussion after a new
> > incubator project proposal (and just changed the subject name)...looks
> like
> > we are really not friendly to new comers especially from a different, non
> > native English speaking (actually most of talent engineers are well
> > educated with English in China) and different culture world...the team is
> > so "scary" and asked us many times like "will they cancel the vote? do
> they
> > really welcome our project?..." when they saw this thread?
> >
> >       And, let's focus on your really issue, maybe we could help you:)
> >
> >       Thanks.
> >
> > Luke
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards!
> > ---------------------
> >
> > Luke Han
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com
> <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Luke:
> > >
> > > This question was originally asked on the incubator list. The members
> list
> > > was added somewhere on the line.
> > >
> > > Part of the incubator challenge is to show community growth. In the
> past, a
> > > good metric seems to have been to check interaction on the mailing
> lists;
> > > for example, on the user list.
> > >
> > > As you note, China changes this equation forming communities on QQ,
> WeChat,
> > > and other places I'm probably not aware of. This means that there can
> be a
> > > thriving user community that the PMC may or may not be aware of. So,
> how to
> > > we assess community involvement that bypass the Apache "everything
> happens
> > > on the mailing lists" principle?
> > >
> > > Like you noted, it's easy to translate questions and respond to
> questions
> > > in English. The Trafodion project does that, no problems. But, most of
> the
> > > discussion in China happen on the alternative forums with the project's
> > > Chinese speakers contributors participating. So, for Trafodion
> > > specifically, I can ask those contributors to provide participation
> > > statistics so that I can include the information in the next report.
> > >
> > > However, I was trying to figure out whether there's an Apache-wide
> issue
> > > that needs to be addressed. Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when
> there's
> > > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > > invisible to the rest of us.
> > >
> > > So, let's think about this from a community building perspective. The
> > > traditional way of mailing lists is now being augmented by WeChat, QQ,
> etc.
> > > in an organic fashion. I'd argue that you don't want to police organic
> > > growth but rather embrace it so that you can get insights into what's
> going
> > > on.
> > >
> > > Assuming that people agree that it's important to bridge the
> communities,
> > > I'd start with something simple: how can we find out what communities
> exist
> > > in the different Chinese forums, membership, and activity. Shy of
> learning
> > > Chinese that is. :)
> > >
> > > My next question is: how can we help those communities? What would make
> > > Apache usage grow even more? For Trafodion, I simply pointed to the QQ
> > > group but that seems way too little...
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Luke Han <luke.hq@gmail.com <mailto:
> luke.hq@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate
> means
> > > > > to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard
> about
> > > it.
> > > > So, I
> > > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion
> group so
> > > > that
> > > > > others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe
> that
> > > was
> > > > > the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than
> shut
> > > > it > down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > > >
> > > > And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or
> Users?
> > > > That's totally different arguments.
> > > >
> > > > Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some
> ideas for
> > > > you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing
> list
> > > > and
> > > > asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese
> too)
> > > had
> > > > tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again.
> And we
> > > > tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And
> we
> > > > have a
> > > > simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter
> which
> > > > Language
> > > > of the question.
> > > > Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs
> > > should
> > > > keep discussion in mailing list, in English.  And then to influent
> others
> > > > who
> > > > want to participate, contribute and use this open source project.
> > > >
> > > > Why English?
> > > > It's only way to cross board for global adoption.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to
> learn
> > > > and
> > > > try new technology with their native language so that they could
> > > understand
> > > > quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good
> > > enough
> > > > at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is
> the
> > > > right
> > > > thing they should to do to get help.
> > > >
> > > > For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native
> > > > language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then
> > > developers.
> > > > We
> > > > shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually
> nothing
> > > > we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very
> active
> > > who
> > > > are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try
> to
> > > > leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question
> there
> > > > but
> > > > will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to
> > > mailing
> > > > list
> > > > because they already could help each other.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in
> China.
> > > > For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people
> and
> > > > more in QQ groups.
> > > >
> > > > One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular
> Hadoop
> > > > WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product,
> > > something
> > > > like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one
> of
> > > such
> > > > accounts...
> > > >
> > > > Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?
> > > >
> > > > Why Chinese?
> > > > To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter
> where's
> > > > project coming from.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards!
> > > > ---------------------
> > > >
> > > > Luke Han
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <
> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other
> > > lists?
> > > > I
> > > > > was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and
> to get
> > > > > help. The support side if you will.
> > > > >
> > > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate
> means
> > > to
> > > > > communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about
> it.
> > > > So, I
> > > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion
> group so
> > > > > that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go.
> Maybe
> > > > that
> > > > > was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere
> than
> > > > shut
> > > > > it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > > > >
> > > > > As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users
> aren't
> > > > > comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help
> > > identify
> > > > > what would work for those users.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> > > > > discussion thread on that topic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Gunnar
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <
> jgenender@apache.org <mailto:jgenender@apache.org>>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> > > > >> international language, not because its the most used in the
> world.
> > > > Thus
> > > > >> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day,
> I
> > > > think
> > > > >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> > > > borders
> > > > >> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can
> > > tell
> > > > you
> > > > >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run
> into
> > > > >> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are
> in
> > > > >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the
> > > > discussion
> > > > >> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about
> who you
> > > > want
> > > > >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> > > doesn’t
> > > > >> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
> This
> > > > >> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the
> project
> > > > when
> > > > >> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses
> any
> > > > >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated
> issue.  In
> > > > the
> > > > >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the
> incubation PMC
> > > > or,
> > > > >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a
> proper
> > > > >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the
> language.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down
> a
> > > > >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my
> .02
> > > is
> > > > >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about
> > > community
> > > > >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.
> If
> > > you
> > > > >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I
> believe
> > > > that
> > > > >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your
> borders.  I
> > > > think
> > > > >> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep
> RocketMQ a
> > > > >> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> > > > >> interested in why.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Just my usual .02.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Jeff
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk
> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk>> wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was
> talking
> > > > about
> > > > >> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay
> but
> > > > >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
> > > never
> > > > >> happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how
> would
> > > > non
> > > > >> Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:
> > > > >> rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > > >> > Adding members@
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org>
> > > > <mailto:
> > > > >> rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that
> > > consist
> > > > >> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or
> put
> > > it
> > > > >> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications
> must be
> > > > in
> > > > >> > > English?
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use
> English, as
> > > > >> English
> > > > >> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> > > software
> > > > >> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of
> proficiency
> > > > >> when it
> > > > >> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China
> is
> > > > much
> > > > >> lower
> > > > >> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to
> learn
> > > > >> English
> > > > >> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will
> also
> > > > >> exclude
> > > > >> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the
> number
> > > of
> > > > >> native
> > > > >> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3
> to 1
> > > > >> according
> > > > >> > > to Wikipedia.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> > > countries,
> > > > >> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <
> lukehan@apache.org <mailto:lukehan@apache.org>
> > > > >> <mailto:lukehan@apache.org <mailto:lukehan@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem
> (maybe
> > > > not
> > > > >> > >> real,
> > > > >> > >> but just
> > > > >> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all
> > > contributions
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> > >> China,
> > > > >> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from
> Chinese
> > > > and
> > > > >> LABEL
> > > > >> > >> for such
> > > > >> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons
> of
> > > > >> "issue" to
> > > > >> > >> describe like
> > > > >> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada
> contribution
> > > or
> > > > >> > >> others...
> > > > >> > >> that's not right way.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but
> they are
> > > > >> > >> contributing to
> > > > >> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very
> > > much,
> > > > >> > >> involved
> > > > >> > >> in many
> > > > >> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last
> 31
> > > days
> > > > >> > >> mailing
> > > > >> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <
> http://lists.apache.org/> <http://lists.apache.org/ <
> http://lists.apache.org/>>
> > > > [1]:
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> > > > >> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> > > > >> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> > > > >> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> > > > >> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> > > > >> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> > > > >> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these
> > > projects,
> > > > >> you
> > > > >> > >> could check
> > > > >> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within
> mailing
> > > > >> list.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find
> out a
> > > > way
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > >> access
> > > > >> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native
> English
> > > > >> speakers,
> > > > >> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the
> > > Apache
> > > > >> Way.
> > > > >> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate
> global
> > > > >> > >> community, and try
> > > > >> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should
> have the
> > > > >> patience
> > > > >> > >> for
> > > > >> > >> those new comers.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know
> our
> > > > >> journey,
> > > > >> > >> our experience
> > > > >> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> > > > >> > >> challenges...through
> > > > >> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also
> > > helping
> > > > >> many
> > > > >> > >> potential projects
> > > > >> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like
> "Help
> > > > >> > >> Trafodion
> > > > >> > >> community"
> > > > >> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> > > > >> Trafodion
> > > > >> > >> PMC
> > > > >> > >> know
> > > > >> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
> > > > >> articles,
> > > > >> > >> session recordings and
> > > > >> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to
> face
> > > > >> > >> discussion
> > > > >> > >> if necessary:-)
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/> <
> https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>>  <
> > > > >> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/> <
> https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>>>
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> > > > >> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com> <mailto:
> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> > Hi,
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of
> > > > contribution
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> > >> > China.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors
> aren't
> > > > that
> > > > >> > >> active
> > > > >> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ
> > > communicating
> > > > in
> > > > >> > >> > Chinese.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that
> it's
> > > hard
> > > > >> not to
> > > > >> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> > > > >> questions etc
> > > > >> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
> > > > >> forward,
> > > > >> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
> > > > members
> > > > >> in
> > > > >> > >> China
> > > > >> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address
> communication
> > > > >> issues like
> > > > >> > >> > this.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Thanks,
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Gunnar
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
> > > > >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
> <mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a
> > > couple
> > > > of
> > > > >> > >> years
> > > > >> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in
> open
> > > > >> source
> > > > >> > >> beyond
> > > > >> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact
> finding
> > > > >> trip to
> > > > >> > >> > China.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I
> > > talked
> > > > >> to. We
> > > > >> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
> > > > >> involved
> > > > >> > >> with
> > > > >> > >> > this proposal.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
> > > > project
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the
> foundation.
> > > We
> > > > >> will
> > > > >> > >> need
> > > > >> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other
> > > China
> > > > >> born
> > > > >> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences
> that
> > > we
> > > > >> need
> > > > >> > >> to
> > > > >> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
> > > > >> foundation
> > > > >> > >> and as
> > > > >> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way.
> Having
> > > > met
> > > > >> some
> > > > >> > >> of
> > > > >> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right
> mentors
> > > the
> > > > >> > >> project
> > > > >> > >> > can succeed.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Ross
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > ---
> > > > >> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > ________________________________
> > > > >> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:
> bruce.snyder@gmail.com> <mailto:
> > > > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> > > > >> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <mailto:
> general@incubator.apache.org> <mailto:
> > > general@incubator.apac
> > > > >> he.org <http://he.org/>>
> > > > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Hi John,
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> > > > >> constructive
> > > > >> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal
> and
> > > > >> project
> > > > >> > >> using
> > > > >> > >> > your suggestions.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread
> by Von
> > > > >> Gosling,
> > > > >> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to
> the
> > > > >> Github
> > > > >> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging
> activity'
> > > the
> > > > >> history
> > > > >> > >> > was
> > > > >> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that
> someone's
> > > > >> git-fu
> > > > >> > >> went
> > > > >> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be
> removed.
> > > Von
> > > > >> also
> > > > >> > >> gives
> > > > >> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response
> below.
> > > > >> Indeed,
> > > > >> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen
> before
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > >> git),
> > > > >> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF
> to
> > > > >> improve
> > > > >> > >> and
> > > > >> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit
> surprising,
> > > > since
> > > > >> > >> Bruce is
> > > > >> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at
> the ASF
> > > > >> exist
> > > > >> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs
> good
> > > > >> mentors,
> > > > >> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> > > > >> interest in
> > > > >> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my
> interest
> > > in
> > > > >> > >> continuing
> > > > >> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15
> > > years
> > > > >> > >> experience
> > > > >> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one
> project
> > > > >> over
> > > > >> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to
> collaborate
> > > > >> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a
> > > > >> community of
> > > > >> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow.
> The
> > > > ASF
> > > > >> is an
> > > > >> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn
> from
> > > > new
> > > > >> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for
> code and
> > > > >> stay for
> > > > >> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
> > > > >> project and
> > > > >> > >> > people to the ASF.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both
> good
> > > > >> > >> suggestions
> > > > >> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve
> the
> > > > >> proposal.
> > > > >> > >> Even
> > > > >> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would
> also
> > > be
> > > > >> great
> > > > >> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
> > > > moving
> > > > >> > >> forward.
> > > > >> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the
> projects
> > > you
> > > > >> > >> mentioned
> > > > >> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on
> the
> > > > >> RocketMQ
> > > > >> > >> code
> > > > >> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by
> > > John
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > >> his
> > > > >> > >> > thoughts:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following
> two
> > > > >> questions
> > > > >> > >> > specifically:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > > >> communities
> > > > >> > >> to
> > > > >> > >> > build cross platform clients?
> > > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode,
> Derby as
> > > > >> backend
> > > > >> > >> > persistence stores?
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Bruce
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> > > > >> john.d.ament@gmail.com <mailto:john.d.ament@gmail.com> <mailto:
> john.d.ament@gmail.com <mailto:john.d.ament@gmail.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> > > > >> roman@shaposhnik.org <mailto:roman@shaposhnik.org> <mailto:
> roman@shaposhnik.org <mailto:roman@shaposhnik.org>>
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
> > > > concerned
> > > > >> > >> about:
> > > > >> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > > >> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> > > > >> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com
> <http://40microsoft.com/> <
> > > > >> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>%
> > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> > > > >> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge
> > > blobs
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of
> initial
> > > > >> committers
> > > > >> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a
> lot
> > > of
> > > > >> time
> > > > >> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> > > > >> prevails.
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the
> > > statement:
> > > > >> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > > > >> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as
> > > well.
> > > > >> I
> > > > >> > >> > suspect
> > > > >> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source
> > > development
> > > > >> on the
> > > > >> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other
> > > apache
> > > > >> > >> products"
> > > > >> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a
> podling
> > > > >> competes
> > > > >> > >> with
> > > > >> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is
> the
> > > > >> chair of
> > > > >> > >> one
> > > > >> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has
> > > synergies
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > >> the
> > > > >> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF
> projects
> > > > >> today in
> > > > >> > >> > their
> > > > >> > >> > > code base.
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or
> ActiveMQ
> > > > >> > >> communities
> > > > >> > >> > to
> > > > >> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
> > > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode,
> Derby
> > > as
> > > > >> backend
> > > > >> > >> > > persistence stores?
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > etc..
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > Thanks,
> > > > >> > >> > > > Roman.
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> > > > >> > >> brianm@skife.org <mailto:brianm@skife.org> <mailto:
> brianm@skife.org <mailto:brianm@skife.org>>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > > > > +1 !
> > > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
> > > > >> jim@jagunet.com <mailto:jim@jagunet.com> <mailto:jim@jagunet.com
> <mailto:jim@jagunet.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> Cool.
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> +1
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> > > > >> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator
> > > podling
> > > > >> named
> > > > >> > >> > > Apache
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> > > > >> distributed,
> > > > >> > >> > easy
> > > > >> > >> > > > to
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> use
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for
> processing
> > > > >> large
> > > > >> > >> > amounts
> > > > >> > >> > > > of
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
> > > > >> following
> > > > >> > >> URL:
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect <
> https://na01.safelinks.protect/>
> > > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%> <https://na01.safelinks.protec <https://na01.safelinks.protec/>
> > > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%>>
> > > > >> > >> 2F%
> > > > >> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/> <
> http://2fwiki.apache.org/ <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>>%2F
> > > > >> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/
> >
> > > > >%7Cd1
> > > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > > >> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3C
> RgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal
> below.
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------
> > > > >> ------------------------------
> > > > >> > >> > ---------
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > > >> apache.org <http://apache.org/> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@
> incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.
> > > > >> > >> org
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------
> > > ------------------------------
> > > > >> > >> ---------
> > > > >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > > >> apache.org <http://apache.org/> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@
> incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-help@
> incubator.apache.org> <mailto:general-help@incubator <mailto:
> general-help@incubator>
> > > > >> .apache.org <http://apache.org/>>
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > --
> > > > >> > >> > perl -e 'print
> > > > >> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&
> 5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> > > > >> "YC;VT*"
> > > > >> > >> );'
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect <
> https://na01.safelinks.protect/>
> > > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url= <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=> <
> https://na01.safelinks.protec <https://na01.safelinks.protec/>
> > > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url= <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%
> 40m
> > > > >> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/> <http://icrosoft.com/ <
> http://icrosoft.com/>>%
> > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> > > > >> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%
> 40mi
> > > > >> crosoft.com <http://crosoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <
> http://40microsoft.com/>>
> > > > >> > >> %
> > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > > 9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> > > > >> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <
> > > https://na01.safelinks <https://na01.safelinks/>
> > > > <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks/ <https://na01.safelinks/>>.
> > > > >> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&> <
> > > > >> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>>
> > > > >> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> http://40microsoft.com/> <
> > > > >> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>%
> 7Cd12890186efe4c
> > > > >> > >> 6e60c908d40597
> > > > >> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > > >> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoW
> zeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url=> <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> > > > >> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/> <
> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>%7Cd1
> > > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > > >> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&
> reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Gunnar
> > > > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're
> right.*
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Mime
  • Unnamed multipart/alternative (inline, None, 0 bytes)
View raw message